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Old July 17th, 2003, 05:16 PM   #1
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Ignition Timing Advance vs HP/TQ Gains as a Percentage

that's right, SteVTEC has a technical question!!

I thought I read somewhere that for every additional 1-degree of ignition timing advance you can add (without detonating) will result in approximately a 1% gain in horsepower and torque.

Is this more or less correct?

I've been trying to find this via Google searches, but all I can find are companies trying to sell me their ignition systems and not any good hardcore tech articles.


Thanks.
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Old July 17th, 2003, 05:20 PM   #2
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Good question?

I have heard many talk about it but have found no proof of it being true.

And it's ok to ask a question , even if many thing you know everything .
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Old July 17th, 2003, 05:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by PlumAccordCoupe on July 17th, 2003 at 06:20 PM

I have heard many talk about it but have found no proof of it being true.
lol, there's no doubt that it's true. It's a simple matter of physics. My question though is just "how much?"

How much is a matter of physics also, but not so simple.
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Old July 17th, 2003, 06:38 PM   #4
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Re: Ignition Timing Advance vs HP/TQ Gains as a Percentage

Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on July 17th, 2003 at 04:16 PM

Is this more or less correct?
Yeah, more or less
It is highly dependent on the combustion chamber design above all else. Example:
A cylinder head from the 1970's on a small block chevy has horrible, poorly designed 76cc chambers. A new type of head was released in 1996 called the vortec head. It has a combustion chamber referred to as a "fastburn" design. Its 64cc, and shaped like a persons kidney. These changes allow almost a full point more compression using the same octane gas before detonation accrues. But even better, they require less timing to make max power. With the old style heads, the more timing the better. With these vortecs you want 34* max total timing at WOT or else power starts falling off, even though no detonation is encountered.
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Old July 17th, 2003, 07:23 PM   #5
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thanks!


















This means my Maxima only has about 165 HP with the knock sensor blown.
Which also explains why I really had to get on it just to out-accelerate a 4-banger Accord the other day.

Last edited by SteVTEC; July 17th, 2003 at 07:25 PM..
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Old July 17th, 2003, 07:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on July 17th, 2003 at 08:23 PM

This means my Maxima only has about 165 HP with the knock sensor blown.
Which also explains why I really had to get on it just to out-accelerate a 4-banger Accord the other day.
I knew there had to be a real reason why you were asking . Hmm sounds like your VQ engine turned into a J engine .

It's ok though, you jut need to get it fixed very quickly .
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Old July 17th, 2003, 08:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by PlumAccordCoupe on July 17th, 2003 at 06:28 PM

Hmm sounds like your VQ engine turned into a J engine .

I
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Old July 17th, 2003, 10:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Which also explains why I really had to get on it just to out-accelerate a 4-banger Accord the other day.
Didn't see you list that one in the kills section!
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Old July 23rd, 2003, 09:07 PM   #9
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There is also some good information on the subject at:



and at :

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Old July 23rd, 2003, 09:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by VaV6 on July 17th, 2003 at 11:11 PM

Didn't see you list that one in the kills section!
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Old July 23rd, 2003, 09:29 PM   #11
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LMAO, you're sooooo lucky it wasn't a six. Youd've gone nuts figuring out how you just got OWN3D!!!!
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Old July 23rd, 2003, 09:41 PM   #12
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Re: Re: Ignition Timing Advance vs HP/TQ Gains as a Percentage

Quote:
Originally posted by bored&stroked on July 17th, 2003 at 04:38 PM

Yeah, more or less
It is highly dependent on the combustion chamber design above all else. Example:
A cylinder head from the 1970's on a small block chevy has horrible, poorly designed 76cc chambers. A new type of head was released in 1996 called the vortec head. It has a combustion chamber referred to as a "fastburn" design. Its 64cc, and shaped like a persons kidney. These changes allow almost a full point more compression using the same octane gas before detonation accrues. But even better, they require less timing to make max power. With the old style heads, the more timing the better. With these vortecs you want 34* max total timing at WOT or else power starts falling off, even though no detonation is encountered.
Damn you Tom.... Glad you got the answer.

I would have said nearly the same thing, but the TOTAL advance for maximun power also takes into effect the comp. ratio and the fuel rating along with the cumbustion chamber design.

I think the "1 degree = 1 %" is a pretty rough estimate of power, but gets you the 'general' idea. The aforementioned variables change evrything.
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Old July 29th, 2003, 03:07 AM   #13
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Hey there,

Okay, so if advancing the ignition timing gives you power, does that mean that retarding it makes you lose power? I'm asking because I heard that if you get a nitrous system in your car, you have to retard it. If that is so, then you end up losing power when you normally drive and makes a nitrous system not really worth getting.

C'ya laterz!
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Old July 29th, 2003, 10:53 AM   #14
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Yes thats what it normally means. A boosted application like NOS is different. You normally want max ignition timing before detonation occures. With NOS, massive cylinder pressure is created. If you don't retard the timing, detonation will occure. Detonation kills a motor, fast. The 2* for every 50hp shot of NOS is a genral rule of thumb so people don't kill their motors.
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Old July 29th, 2003, 11:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by bored&stroked on July 29th, 2003 at 08:53 AM

...You normally want max ignition timing before detonation occurs....
This is the KEY sentence in his reply. Our cars (98-02 Accords) are NOWHERE EVEN CLOSE to being at the maximum advance for the motor. So there would be no reason to change it. Not to mention that the timing is NOT adjustable anyways.
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Old July 29th, 2003, 01:23 PM   #16
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Here's a great sticky from ClubWRX regarding detonation and such. It's not specific to any car. If the link dosen't work or you can't see it, lemme know and I'll post it up.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showth...tar+detonation
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Old August 1st, 2003, 04:42 AM   #17
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Hey there,

Okay, so I have the Tech Moderator and the ASE Certified Admin. telling me two different things. I'm officially lost. Your guys' help is very much appreciated since I really really REALLY don't want to blow up my engine.

I've been reading the High-Performance Honda Builder's Handbook by Joe Pettitt. It has a whole chapter on ignition timing, so that must mean that it's important. BUT for the 2000-2002 Accords, we can't change our ignition timing because of some funky system we have that doesn't use a distributor. So what are we to do? My car sucks balls!

Seriously though, I plan on getting a 50 shot dry kit (I heard that that set-up is the safest nitrous kit you can use) after getting Comptech's Stage Two (linked) engine build-up, their Ice-Box and mufflers, and our forum's beloved CL Type S cam swap. I know after all that I'm going to need to have my air/fuel and ignition systems tuned. There's the APEX-i VFAC II out now that I can use for the air/fuel stuff. But there's nothing for the ignition system!

C'ya laterz!

PS You're probably thinking "Why doesn't he want a Comptech Supercharger?" The reason is because I heard it heats up the intake charge A LOT. I'd rather my engine not run hot. Heat leads to detonation.
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Old August 1st, 2003, 10:51 AM   #18
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OK first off, me and toby are saying the exact same thing, not different. We tend to agree with each other

Second, why the heck would you spend the money of comptechs stage 2 build up? Such a overpriced product if I've ever seen one. With only a 50shot of NOS you don't need any building up, at all. You'd be HP & torque ahead to just buy a 3.5L shortblock and swap it in instead.

Yes the timing is fixed on DIS cars.
You don't want a supercharger because it creates heat and this induces detonation. Well your kinda right on that one, except its not the problem you think it is. With only 9.somthing to 1 compression and very conservative timing, detonation isen't a problem with these cars. You'd have a better chance of detonating with a 50shot of NOS. But I agree, forget superchagers. N/A is the only way to go
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Old August 1st, 2003, 11:32 AM   #19
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Here we go again... AGREEING on the same facts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuya Master on August 1st, 2003 at 02:42 AM

... for the 2000-2002 Accords, we can't change our ignition timing because of some funky system we have that doesn't use a distributor. So what are we to do?
You don't do anything. You modify the car as much as possible with what you are given. It is better that the timing is fixed for you anyways. This way it will be VERY hard for you to screw something up by using Nitrous.

Quote:
Seriously though, I plan on getting a 50 shot dry kit (I heard that that set-up is the safest nitrous kit you can use) after getting Comptech's Stage Two (linked) engine build-up, their Ice-Box and mufflers, and our forum's beloved CL Type S cam swap. I know after all that I'm going to need to have my air/fuel and ignition systems tuned. There's the APEX-i VFAC II out now that I can use for the air/fuel stuff. But there's nothing for the ignition system!
There is NO reason for the 98-02 owners to use the VAFC-II. It has an integrated knock sensor control (FOR TIMING) and different adjustement incriments. That's it. Stick with the VAFC 1, it is cheaper.

Quote:
You're probably thinking "Why doesn't he want a Comptech Supercharger?" The reason is because I heard it heats up the intake charge A LOT. I'd rather my engine not run hot. Heat leads to detonation.
Keep up on those automotive books Yes a super charger will heat up the intake charge. It also cams a BUTT load more air into the cylinder. So now you have much more air in the cylinder to compress, and we all know the pressure adds HEAT, right? So more air/fuel = MORE HEAT in the cumbustion chamber which in turn MAKES MORE POWER. Now here's a little secret for you... Nitrous does the EXACT same thing. It adds "air" to the intake charge in a CHEMICAL form (Oxygen). Same thing happens compressed gas (nitrous oxide) enters the cylinder, and upon the compression stroke it ACTUALLY ADDS MORE HEAT than the blower does.

You line of thinking was good, but not quite on the right track. I hope this helps you
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Old August 1st, 2003, 12:26 PM   #20
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Should we really start confusing them and talk about how heat actually IS power?

j/k guys. Keep the questions coming. Thats what were here for!
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Old August 1st, 2003, 11:20 PM   #21
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so if i advance the timing on my pushrod V6 mullet truck, i should gain apprx 1.75 hp per every degree? race fuel here i come....
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Old August 2nd, 2003, 06:51 AM   #22
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On the subject of Nitrous.

Hey there,

Okay, so nitrous makes the intake charge hotter than the supercharger? The main reason why I decided on a nitrous setup instead of the supercharger is because of what the book I mentioned said about it (I separated the author's original entry, which was one long ass paragraph, into three parts for ease of reference and reading. The most influencial parts for me to get a dry nitrous system are the first and last parts. I included the middle part so you guys could see all of what he was saying.):

"On dry systems, you want the nozzle as far away from the throttle body as possible. That gives the nitrous that is coming out of the nozzle at -190 degrees F time to cool the intake charge. We've found that a three foot distance from the throttle body with a 60 horsepower kit dropped the intake air temperature from 120 degrees F to 60 degrees before the car got into third gear.

If you place the nozzle right at the throttle body, which most people do out of a misunderstanding of needs of a dry system versus a wet system, you're losing power. In a wet system, nitrous and fuel are injected together into a carburated or throttle body-injected engine. Since the whole intake runner is filled with explosives, you need to keep that volume down. Then, if the motor backfires, you won't have as powerful an explosion as you would if the intake runner were filled with gas combined with the nitrous, and filling up the cold ar ducting as well. If you're running a wet system, you want to introuduce the nitrouse and fuel as close to the valve as possible, mainly for backfireing damage control.

Dry systems don't have that problem, so you can take advantage of cooling the air. Place the nitrous nozzle right after the air cleaner. The more you cool the intake charge, the more free horsepower you get."

After you guys told me that nitrous, "upon the compression stroke it ACTUALLY ADDS MORE HEAT than the blower does," I scoured the book for info on the subject. I couldn't find anything. Maybe because it's written in higher-tech vocab and I didn't see it for what it was, or maybe because he goes into more details of forced induction and nitrous in the second volume of
The High-Pwerformance Honda Builder's Handbook, which I don't have.

So I guess my question is this. So even though the dry shot of nitrous cools the intake charge way colder than that of the supercharger's, in the end it still makes the engine more prone to detonation? How is this? I'm sorry if this is too much of a bother. It's just that I really like to play it safe with my car. Anyone who remembers me from when we all used to chill in the "Accord" section of superhonda.com would agree. This is the "Technical" section where the more knowledgeable and (more importantly) experienced of us hang out. So that's why I'm turning to you guys for help. THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME!

C'ya laterz!

PS Please note that the "technical" stuff I posted is copyrighted by Joe Pettitt and published by CARTECH Auto Books & Manuals. I have posted the material here for educational purposes and under no circumstances is am I trying to make monetary profit from it. Yadda yadda ya and the rest of the legal junk.
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Old August 2nd, 2003, 04:43 PM   #23
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The reason nitrous increases the posiblity of detonation is because it adds more oxygen to the intake charge. Everytime you add more O2 you need more gas or you will be running lean and detonating.

More air, more fuel, more boom.


Just a side note on timing advance/retard. Retarding the timing, along with causing a slight loss in power, will increase your EGT (exhaust gas temperature). By backing timing off in my teg i was able to increase my EGT's (within safe limits of course) to the point that my turbo would spool a full 600rpm's earlier (more heat = more velocity = quicker spool). Dropped my ET's by nearly half a second.
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Old August 2nd, 2003, 04:48 PM   #24
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Re: On the subject of Nitrous.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kuya Master on August 2nd, 2003 at 04:51 AM

...Okay, so nitrous makes the intake charge hotter than the supercharger?...
Who said that?

There is a VAST difference between INTAKE AIR and CUMBUSTION CHAMBER TEMPS....

Read it again.
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Old August 2nd, 2003, 10:50 PM   #25
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think of it as a acetylene torch...... if you put more oxygen, the hotter it burns right? so even though the intake charge is very cold, when it ignites, it gets REALLY hot.... maybe hot enough to melt aluminum heads if ran for a long time???
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Old August 2nd, 2003, 11:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by BLAZEDnCONFUSED on August 2nd, 2003 at 08:50 PM

think of it as a acetylene torch...... if you put more oxygen, the hotter it burns right? so even though the intake charge is very cold, when it ignites, it gets REALLY hot.... maybe hot enough to melt aluminum heads if ran for a long time???
Um.... the pistons are aluminum...
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