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Old April 11th, 2005, 06:49 PM   #1
 
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Exclamation -=What YOU Need To Know About Tranny Fluid For Our Accords & How To KEEP IT STRONG=-

OK guys, I'm on my 3rd tranny and decided to get as much info to help us out with our auto-tragic crap gear box. So I did research, and expirementing and have come to find out these conclusions. Read if you'd like to extend your trannies life.

Heat is the major enemy of the automatic transmission and ATF. Heat-degraded ATF turns acidic, eating away at transmission parts. It thickens, leaving vulnerable components to fail for lack of lubrication. It coats transmission parts with sludge, ruining performance, fuel economy, cold starting and transmission durability.

Experts agree that every 20 F increase in transmission temperatures above normal (175 F) cuts conventional ATF life in half. Conventional fluid in a transmission running at 175 F may last 50,000 miles. At 195 F, it may last 25,000 miles. At 212 F, 12,500 miles. You get the point.



Now our trannies dont have a heating problem as much as they do a lubricating problem. We have poor lubricating of the 2nd and 3rd gear clutch packs. Plus a valve body that likes to get clogged. Two disasters waiting to detroy your tranny. By keeping the fluid cooler, flowing better, and filtering the fluid I believe we greatly reduce our tranny failure rate. The new Accords have a tranny fix where they add a hose line and tap into the case to spray directly onto the 2nd and 3rd gears. We do not have that option. Our tranny pump typically runs at about 90-140psi~~. Depending on the voltage of your electrical system output and the condition of your pump. It fluctuates. I am experiementing by adding .75% of a quart extra fluid in my tranny to see if the extra fluid helps keep the badly lubricated clutch packs from drying and wearing out. We'll see what happens. I feel confident about it though.

I've also been doing some research and found that Honda ATF is a very pure normal ATF. It has the following "ingrediants":

1 PPM Iron
247 PPM Boron
3 PPM Silicon
2 PPM Sodium
341 PPM Calcium
216 PPM Magnesium
6 PPM Phosphorus
318 PPM Zinc
SUS Viscosity @ 210F 50.1
Flashpoint 380 Degrees F

Basically, Honda ATF is really nothing more that a standard ATF of very high quality. Now, I also ran a cold weather test on several brands of ATF Honda Z1, Mobil 1, Redline D4, Valvoline Syhetic Blend, NAPA ATF. The test temperature was 0 degrees F. Exactly the same amounts of fluid were placed in teflon specimen containers and frozen for 2 days.Control containers were left at room temperature.The results: Only the NAPA brand and Valvoline blend saw significant changes in viscosity.Interestingly, the Honda ATF was slightly thicker than normal, but other wise fine. The difference was slight. The same can be said for the rest of the samples. The only conclusion I can arrive at is that cold weather must be extreme to effect any of the fluids. I say STICK TO THE HONDA ATF ONLY!! Each time I tried a different fluid my tranny was slipping and soon out of service within 1 months time. I believe this is due to the high friction oil fluid we need that other fluids dont have.

NOW, I also went about and installed a B&M Transmission Cooler and Perma-Cool Oil Filter Kit. I also installed a Transmission Temp. Gauge to record the temperature of the tranny fluid is before and after the install. Here are my findings.


BEFORE tranny cooler install:

Idle fluid temp= ~185 F.
City driving fluid temp = ~170 F.
Highway driving temp = ~ 135 F.

AFTER tranny cooler install:

Idle fluid temp= ~175 F.
City driving fluid temp = ~145 F.
Highway driving fluid temp = ~110 F. !!!!

Amazed at the difference in running temps. Butt feeling says firmer shifts. But no facts. See above for tranny fluid life. I have yet to see the temps of the fluid under extreme driving conditions as I just finished installing everything and want to make sure that everything is OK before running it hard. When I get the S/C I also will post my findings. Thanx for tuning in and feel free to ask questions.

-Samir

Last edited by Viper; September 7th, 2005 at 02:38 PM..
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Old April 11th, 2005, 06:57 PM   #2
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Very helpful thanks for the info
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Old April 11th, 2005, 07:03 PM   #3
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Just a few notes to add in:

The 2nd and 3rd gear lube fix on the 7g av6's stems from the 5AT transmission. It features an additional shaft on which the gears reside (2&3) this design was used with the 5 Speed autos, notoriously found in the TL/CL and now the Accord. The oil jet fix was a patch on top of the exisiting problem, so the lubrication issue in our transmissions was not the issue at hand.

Our problem was clutch pack deterioration...our clutch bands were made of inferior materials prone to breaking down after a while, due to excess heat. The transmission cooler can greatly reduce the risk of this deterioration. But if these clutch packs break apart, it's the fragments of them that clogs our valve body and causes our erratic shifting, in addition to halting fluid flow and causing overheating/seizing issues. This is where the filter comes in, it catches these particles before they cause some serious damage or clogs. But even still, as your clutch packs deteriorate and the filter catches the particles and metal shavings, you are still loosing your friction material, for the ultimate downfall of a slipping transmission that wont grab the gear you need.

Possible solution concept? Better clutch packs and increase the line pressure for firmer, more positive slips to reduce wear on the clutches...
(hmm sounds like dr evil?)

Add a cooler for temperature control, and a filter to keep particles from places they arent to be, in addition to those other parts and you 'should' be ok, but theres probably just another gremlin in there to screw things up as well.

Great Huh? Thanks Honda
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Old April 11th, 2005, 07:03 PM   #4
 
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good post!
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Old April 11th, 2005, 07:24 PM   #5
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nice looks like u finally got to the dealership.
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Old April 11th, 2005, 07:32 PM   #6
 
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Lol^^^

actually, it wasnt working all day even after i put the fluid. i took off the panel and the wire we put to extend had disconnected when we pulled on it to tuck it behind the fuse panel! HA!!! what f*ckin idiots we iz nigga!
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Old April 11th, 2005, 07:35 PM   #7
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oh sh*t if it aint one thing its the other. i told u that u should have gotten the inverter so that we could put on the light.
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Old April 11th, 2005, 08:11 PM   #8
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damn good stuff Samir .. im about to go change my ATF now .. how much does the Honda ATF cost?
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Old April 11th, 2005, 08:29 PM   #9
 
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$3 a quart.

yea, working in the dark is RETARDED!!
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Old April 11th, 2005, 08:45 PM   #10
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looks like its garage time....
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Old April 11th, 2005, 09:06 PM   #11
 
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hell yea, find one
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Old April 11th, 2005, 09:13 PM   #12
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Very good post, should be a sticky, anyone else agree?
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Old April 12th, 2005, 09:24 AM   #13
 
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Oh yea for those who wonder if the honda Z1 is a fully synthetic fluid, or is it a blend, or standard. I've got the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for the Honda Z1 ATF. It lists a hydrocracked petolium basestock. So it's not very likely the Honda ATF is a synthetic blend. If it is, it's as a result of the additive package and not the used to make the fluid. I can tell you that at 0 degrees F it still flows pretty nicely. I'm thinking that I'll have to freeze a bunch of samples at -25 F to see any real issues. However, the slight change in viscosity does explain why ours shifts poorly when fairly cold. I think that mixing Honda ATF with Mobil 1 (50-50 or 2/3-1/3) will give you just enough of an edge to prevent that cold weather shifting issue, for those living in cold climates. I've not had any issues since using B&M and Mobil 1 (50-50). However, I'm planning on going back to Honda Z1 and Mobil 1 / AMSOIL ATF and running some tests.


If you car is a 2000 or 2001 or if you have the extended warranty.... don't use the B&M product, stick with Honda ATF. Really. If they even suspect you've used some elses fluid you'll never get any warranty work on the transmission. So I think there is a problem with B&M ATF... not... but, Honda is just looking for reasons to screw people. If you are not going to change the fuild yourself, then just use the Honda ATF.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 11:32 AM   #14
 
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Whats being done now for the transmissions if they go bad?

98' with 105 000miles on it. Anything honda will do, or would I simply be out of luck?

Also if you change the oil and filter for the tranny every 25000 miles or so is there a good change the tranny will still pull strong past 200 000miles on the car? I want to keep my car a long time, but don't want to have to pay over half the cars value in a new transmission.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 01:03 PM   #15
 
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Should I do a gradual drain and refill over my next few oil changes or wait for a flush and fill? 23k on my 7G.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 02:14 PM   #16
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thats a nice write up, I will probably be installing a tranny cooler soon, I have a tranny filter sitting around already. -J
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Old April 12th, 2005, 08:57 PM   #17
 
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Honda states that 3 fills and drains will be same as a flush. But you dont need to do this unless your fluid isnt red in color.
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Old April 12th, 2005, 09:20 PM   #18
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper
yea, working in the dark is RETARDED!!
hmm, then tell me how retarded is spraypainting your lip on a balcony in the darkness with a faint flashlight in the other hand???

impatience is a b!oitch


Now on the tranny:
you peaked my curiosity by saying that topping off the ATF level might help the situation. My car came with ATF level like 1 inch above the normal mark on the dipstick - at first i though it was due to mechanics negligence, but i have doubts now.

Also you had mentioned the ATF pump. I had no idea it was electric!
Maybe, just maybe, the two things that plague our AV6s, namely distributor and tranny, are ACTUALLY RELATED! i.e low current produced by distributor affects the pump, and the low flow of the ATF kills the tranny. Now how is that for a conspiracy theory

I wish we could put a common effort to find some good solution to that terrible problem.

Alex
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Old April 12th, 2005, 09:24 PM   #19
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New fluid is red

By the way if the entire tranny problem had to do with alternator deficiencies, how come the TL/CL/Accord 4 Cyl with Denso alternators that don't crap out on you have the same problems? What about those with aftermarket units? Bosch, Alterstart, etc..?

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Old April 12th, 2005, 09:29 PM   #20
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTEC-v6!
New fluid is red

By the way if the entire tranny problem had to do with alternator deficiencies, how come the TL/CL/Accord 4 Cyl with Denso alternators that don't crap out on you have the same problems? What about those with aftermarket units? Bosch, Alterstart, etc..?

Yea, you are right, I was just talking outta my a$$
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Old April 13th, 2005, 12:33 AM   #21
 
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Good stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper
If you car is a 2000 or 2001 or if you have the extended warranty.... don't use the B&M product, stick with Honda ATF. Really. If they even suspect you've used some elses fluid you'll never get any warranty work on the transmission. So I think there is a problem with B&M ATF... not... but, Honda is just looking for reasons to screw people.
No, they are trying to save money. Honda is really hurting right now with having to replace all of these failing transmissions. I'm sure they don't want to pay the bill for something that might not be their fault (would you?). So stick with Honda ATF and you should be ok warranty wise.



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Old April 13th, 2005, 06:56 AM   #22
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A tranny cooler and inline filter still isn't going to stop transmissions from blowing up. The clutch material is still going to wear, as are the bearings which were also said to be faulty although the clutch material gets most of the attention. This definitely won't hurt the tranny, but it isn't a "miracle cure" guaranteed save either. The transmissions themselves are fundamentally a BAD DESIGN and the only thing you can do is bandaid it and hope for the best. Just like the 7g/5AT 2nd gear lube fix, which is a separate issue.

WHERE exactly is the tranny filter that you can add in relation to the clutch packs and the valvebody? If the filter is after the clutch packs and before the valvebody in relation to ATF flow then it'll definitely help. If it's clutch packs > valvebody > filter, then it's not going to do jack. Does anybody know?
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Old April 13th, 2005, 02:00 PM   #23
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There's no filter, people are splicing one in through the hose going to the radiator for cooling...most likely after everything
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Old April 13th, 2005, 03:48 PM   #24
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^Yeah. It's the easy way. Is it even possible to do clutchpacks>filter>valvebody on our cars?

Good info and post Samir. You have redeemed yourself from the incident with the throttle body and your hand. j/k.

100-degrees... So technically, I can disconnect the hose and spray near-body-temperature tranny fluid all over me while cruisin' down the freeway... not bad.
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Old April 13th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #25
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Depends on the architecture of the transmission, we wouldn't really know unless somebody had one sitting in there garage we could look at. Even then it would involve welding in a bypass, where the fluid is redirected through the filter and then back into the flow of coolant. Not to mention it would still slip
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Old April 13th, 2005, 06:20 PM   #26
 
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Quote:
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^Yeah. It's the easy way. Is it even possible to do clutchpacks>filter>valvebody on our cars?

Good info and post Samir. You have redeemed yourself from the incident with the throttle body and your hand. j/k.

100-degrees... So technically, I can disconnect the hose and spray near-body-temperature tranny fluid all over me while cruisin' down the freeway... not bad.

LOL, punk!

YEa its very surprising that it cools down so much. BUt unless you wanna look like a girl on her period, i wouldnt know a safe was for u to to be able to get to the hose while driving on the free way without falling off. but if u can do it, then hey video tape it!
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Old April 15th, 2005, 02:20 PM   #27
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very helpful!

i vote to sticky this thread?
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Old April 15th, 2005, 04:21 PM   #28
 
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Sticky Icky Icky
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Old April 15th, 2005, 05:01 PM   #29
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Oh fine...*sticks*
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Old April 16th, 2005, 11:10 AM   #30
 
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FYI, Here is a picture of the clutch packs found in our transmission.





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