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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:07 AM   #1
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Race Gas into my accord!

Well I went to the 76 station with my 2 friends and I put in 1/4 tank of 100 octane(4.39 a gallon). I had 1/4 tank of 91 so it makes it about 95 octane. I did race alot last night and can tell you that I do feel a difference in power. My power increase was noticable all throughout my powerband. So try it and see what you guys think. After last night I am hooked on race gas. I will do it again next time we race around.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:20 AM   #2
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Dynos?
Timeslips?
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:21 AM   #3
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can you really add 100 octane to 91 octane, average them together, and get 95 octane gas?
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:22 AM   #4
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oooooooooooooo i saw some racing gas 101 octane it was tempting....(is that bad for your engine?)
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:22 AM   #5
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No dyno's and no timeslips. Just racing other cars last night I could feel a difference.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:26 AM   #6
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pfizzle, stick with straight up 87 for our cars. C&D did a test (there are posts somewhere) and our cars do better with 87 octane then anything higher. maybe 89 sometimes, but there is really no point for us, as far as i know. the 7th gens are told to use 91 octane i think, but unless Steve has different input stick to 87.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:32 AM   #7
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ummm how would steve know what 100 octane does for a 7th gen.. i can tell u as an OWNER of a 7th gen.. when you put in 87.. the car accelerates OKAY.. put in premium (93 or 91) and the car feels like its accelerating better (diff is a lil better than drivin with your ac on or off.. there is a gain of about 10 hp/10ftlb torque).. put in 100 octane and you get a similar gain in speed on top of the 93 octane...

the reason why you wont see any hard figures on it is because noone has dynoed the 7th gen on 100 octane.. timeslips would be nice but i only put it in once and raced around with a few friends and it was definitely more powerful
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:33 AM   #8
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i use 93 octane for my car at the start of 55k
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:38 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by 036spCoupe on October 26th, 2003 at 01:32 PM

put in 100 octane and you get a similar gain in speed on top of the 93 octane...


Once the engine is able to reach the maximum timing advance that it's programmed for, upping the octane content even more will do absolutely nothing. This claim is BS without proof. So you're saying that the 7th gen V6 runs ignition timing so ridiculously aggressive that you'll get knock even on 93 gas on a relatively low by today's standards 10.0:1 compression ratio? I seriously doubt it.

Lets see some slips or dynos.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by PFizzle on October 26th, 2003 at 01:33 PM

i use 93 octane for my car at the start of 55k
On a 6th gen that is a complete waste of money. You're paying more for less performance.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 10:43 AM   #11
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I am scared of SteVTEC hes usually right SteVTEC----->

lol i want a I luv stevtech shirt
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Old October 26th, 2003, 11:08 AM   #12
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I'd watch out for any high octane racing fuel. They still used leaded fuel in some racing circuits. I've seen those "Racing Fuel 100+ octane" pumps around but they've all had "Not for use in Street Vehicles". What the hell do they have them at the drive up gas station for???
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Old October 26th, 2003, 11:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by 036spCoupe
ummm how would steve know what 100 octane does for a 7th gen.. i can tell u as an OWNER of a 7th gen.. when you put in 87.. the car accelerates OKAY.. put in premium (93 or 91) and the car feels like its accelerating better (diff is a lil better than drivin with your ac on or off.. there is a gain of about 10 hp/10ftlb torque).. put in 100 octane and you get a similar gain in speed on top of the 93 octane...

the reason why you wont see any hard figures on it is because noone has dynoed the 7th gen on 100 octane.. timeslips would be nice but i only put it in once and raced around with a few friends and it was definitely more powerful
i think you were responding to me...and i was responding to pfizzle, a 6th gen owner and as steve (former 6th gen owner) said, 93 octane in our cars (6th gens) do nothing. 87 octane is the best for us, plain and simple.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedmojo on October 26th, 2003 at 02:08 PM

I'd watch out for any high octane racing fuel. They still used leaded fuel in some racing circuits. I've seen those "Racing Fuel 100+ octane" pumps around but they've all had "Not for use in Street Vehicles". What the hell do they have them at the drive up gas station for???
Because guys with trucks towing their trailer queens stop by to fill them up. By trailer queen, I mean like a built SB350 Chevy running 11-12:1 compression or higher with crazy timing settings- an all-motor beast. Or a forced induction car that either had forced induction added to it and is running crazy boost and actually needs race gas, or a factory boosted car that is also running well in excess of factory boost and needs it also.

Not a Honda Accord.
Not a Toyota Camry.
Not a Nissan Maxima.

Not discriminating.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 12:43 PM   #15
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well seeing as how you are speculating.. and i dont have figures to back up my claim either.. all i can offer is what i feel when driving the car at higher octane... regardless we'll agree to disagree as i assure you it is a noticeable difference
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Old October 26th, 2003, 12:59 PM   #16
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Old October 26th, 2003, 01:02 PM   #17
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Believe whatever you want to believe, but I can pretty much guarantee you that you're not going to get another 10hp/tq over 93 octane just by running race gas on a Honda Accord. You don't just keep cranking up the octane levels and steadily get more power. It's not nearly that simple, but that's what your post was suggesting.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 02:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by 036spCoupe on October 26th, 2003 at 03:43 PM

well seeing as how you are speculating.. and i dont have figures to back up my claim either.. all i can offer is what i feel when driving the car at higher octane... regardless we'll agree to disagree as i assure you it is a noticeable difference
It is called the Placebo affect my friend, and not untill YOU get some proof, YOU are the one that is wrong, and YOU and only YOU are saying that a higher octane will boost performance in our Accords when THEY DON'T.

People like you are filling up with the "good" stuff because the commercials imply that it's better for their engine. When the oil companies use superlatives like "Super", "Extra" and "High"...well it must be better, right? And of course they wouldn't be charging $0.10 - $0.20 more unless they were putting some really good stuff in there, right? NOPE.

High-octane fuels only become necessary when your engine has a high compression ratio. Itís a very long and complicated story.

Here is a summary:

All gasoline, regardless of itsí octane rating, have pretty much the same amount of energy per gallon. Well, actually, some higher-octane fuels have a few LESS percent energy per gallonÖso as not to argue over this small point, for the sake of this discussion we will all agree that the automotive gasoline that you buy at the pump, regardless of octane rating, has the same amount of potential energy.

Octane is NOT a measure of power but of the fuelsí resistance to ignition from heat. A higher-octane fuel also, under identical combustion chamber conditions, will burn slower. How can this be? If all of the above is true, how do we get more power out of high octane gasoline? We do, donít we?

Hereís how:

First you must understand "heat of compression". A length of bamboo was hollowed out leaving one end capped. A stick, about the same length as the bamboo, was whittled down until it fit snugly into the bamboo cylinder. A bit of dried grass or wood shavings were placed in the bottom of the bamboo cylinder and the snugly fitting stick was violently rammed down the bamboo tube. The heat generated from rapidly compressing the air in the tube was sufficient to ignite the tinder.

The same thing can happen in the cylinder of an engine. The piston, quickly squeezing the fuel/air mixture into a small space, can generate enough heat of compression to ignite the fuel well before the spark plug fires, with unpleasant results. If the fuel prematurely ignites while the piston is on itsí way up, the burning of the fuel, in conjunction with the rising piston, creates even more pressure, resulting in a violent explosion. This explosion is equivalent to hitting the top of the piston with a very large hammer. If you want to be able to see through the top of your piston, ignore those sounds that are usually called: "pre-ignition", "ping" or "engine knock".

What we really want is a very rapid burn of the fuel, not an explosion. And we want the burning of the fuel to take place while the piston is in a better position to convert this pressure into productive work, like on itsí way down. Think of this burning as a very fast "push" on the top of the piston. Despite the violent noises you hear from some exhaust systems, it really is a rapid push on the top of the piston making the crankshaft go around, not explosions.

So that we can ignite the fuel at exactly the right time with the spark plug, instead of from the heat of compression, they put stuff into gasoline to keep it from igniting prematurely. The more resistant the fuel is to ignition from the heat of compression, the higher itsí octane rating.

Are you with me so far?

Higher compression ratios = higher combustion chamber pressures = higher heatÖ and it is with these higher combustion chamber temperatures that the magic happens.

At higher temperatures the fuel is burned more efficiently. So, while itís true that the higher-octane fuel does not posses any more energy than low octane fuel, the increased octane allows the extraction of more of the potential energy that has always been there. Conversely, lower compression ration engines utilize a little less of the fuel energy potential (2-4% reduction) but there is also less heat generated in the combustion process.

So how do you know if you need high-octane fuel? You look in the ownersí manual! Manufacturers really do want you to get the maximum efficiency out of your engine. They do their best to give a good balance between horsepower and engine life. Itís in their best interests to do so.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT to using a higher octane than your engine needs. The only benefit is increased profits to the oil companies that have cleverly convinced some of the public that their new "Super-Duper, Premium-High-Test, Clean-Burning, Used-By-Famous-Racing-Types-All-Around-The-World, Extra-Detergent-Laden-Keep-Your-Pipes-Clean, Extra-High-Octane" fuel is your enginesí best friend.

People insist that they got better mileage, better acceleration, and less dental plaque by switching to a high-octane fuel. You must be reminded that in every pharmacy is a special miracle pill that is often prescribed by doctors, it works wonders because people believe that it works wonders; itís called a "placebo".


If you are getting pinging or knocking with what should be the correct octane for your engine, start by checking the ignition timing, also check that the spark plug is the correct heat range. For 2-strokes, check for excessive carbon build-up on the top of the piston, the carbon takes up space and increases the compression ratio.

If all is well and correct, and you still are getting knocking, then try the next higher octane. You wonít go faster, you wonít go farther, but you will prevent an unsightly hole in your piston.

to Viper for me.

Last edited by Viper; October 26th, 2003 at 02:19 PM..
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Old October 26th, 2003, 02:15 PM   #19
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Viper,

You know this is the 7th gen forum, right?

J30A4 is a completely different animal than the J30A1.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 02:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedmojo
What the hell do they have them at the drive up gas station for???
Like SteVTEC said ... for crazily compressed cars, or extremely high boosted cars. There's a gas station maybe a mile from my house that sells unleaded 100 octane gas. It's a pump that's away from the others. I couldn't help but to ask the guy why in the hell did he have ... there wasn't a race track near there for at least 40 miles.

He stated that there's several guys that come in there on a regular and they fill up thier "toys" to drive around on weekends. Plus there's a boat drag that goes on at the lake about a mile down the road and they usually get some.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 02:17 PM   #21
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Wait a second. We're in the 7gen forum.....eek!

I have a question, since I havent kept up with the J30A4 motor. Does it adjust for higher octane fuels and benefit from it? Or does it just not benefit from anything higher than 93 octane?

Last edited by Viper; October 26th, 2003 at 02:20 PM..
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Old October 26th, 2003, 02:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Viper on October 26th, 2003 at 05:17 PM

Wait a second. We're in the 7gen forum.....eek!

I have a question, since I havent kept up with the J30A4 motor. Does it adjust for higher octane fuels and benefit from it? Or does it just not benefit from anything higher than 93 octane?
Yes, it does appear to gain power from higher octane fuel. But again, once you reach the maximum ignition timing settings that the engine is programmed for and are ping free, higher and higher octane fuel is only going to hurt you.

The reason the 6th gen loses power from higher octane is because the maximum ignition timing curves are still conservative enough that the engine is ping-free under all conditions with 87. So adding higher octane will not help anything, and actually hurts it.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 03:13 PM   #23
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ok, but for our arguements sake, 100 octane fuel will not do anything for the 7gens.

So I wasnt wrong in what I said.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 03:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Viper
ok, but for our arguements sake, 100 octane fuel will not do anything for the 7gens.

So I wasnt wrong in what I said.
Not nessacarily. Since 93 Octane is usually the highest octane you can get at gas pumps that maybe what Honda rated it at when using Premium. There may be still a few more ponies availble still yet by using 100 octane. The only way this is going to be proven though is to put it on a dyno and see how much it gains if any.

Even still if there are any gains, who's going to want to spend nearly $5.00 dollars a gallon for 100 octane?
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Old October 26th, 2003, 03:42 PM   #25
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i put 100 octane in my lamborgini......i felt the difference
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Old October 26th, 2003, 03:48 PM   #26
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Lamborghini Huh?
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Old October 26th, 2003, 05:14 PM   #27
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ummm wow viper you certainly get the award for one of the longest and yet most pointless posts i've ever seen.. i certainly hope that was a cut and paste job...

getting back to the point: "But again, once you reach the maximum ignition timing settings that the engine is programmed for and are ping free, higher and higher octane fuel is only going to hurt you"... last i checked neither you nor i knew what these optimum ignition timings are.. we are both speculating as to what they are.. and i never claimed that it was a linear benefit as you go up in horsepower.. my intention was there was a very noticeable benefit in the power..

placebo? perhaps.. though the same was argued when the j30a4 came out and the benefit of higher octane fuel was questioned (no doubt by ppl that like posting long posts )..
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Old October 26th, 2003, 05:37 PM   #28
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I'll bet my $$$ that honda designed the ignition map for this engine using 91octane as the base and then added the knock sensor and gave the public the 87octane power ratings since 95% of them will use 87. Thats why the honda engineer said it gets the boost by going to 91octane, they know this because they deisgned it that way. Going to 100octane is like going to 91 in a 6th gen, not only a waste of money but a quicker way of wearing out your engine with all the extra carbon deposits.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 05:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by 036spCoupe on October 26th, 2003 at 08:14 PM

placebo? perhaps..
Thanks.

In other words you really don't know if you gained anything or not.

Along the lines of what bored&stroked said, Honda probably set the default timing map to 91 octane and then simply retard it from there via the knock sensor if people are running 87. In order for the engine to gain power by race gas, they would have had to set the default timing map for 96+ octane fuel which is not even available in the vast majority of the US. Now why the heck would they do that? They wouldn't have because it makes absolutely no sense.

I've done some OBD-II datalogging in my Maxima with 93 gas in the tank and the knock sensor both connected and bypassed. It ran the same timing knock-free in both conditions, meaning there was no more advance to be had and no more power to gain with a higher octane fuel. With the knock sensor bypassed, if timing suddenly jumped by 10 degrees across the board and the engine started knocking like a mofo, then yes, there would be more power by getting it knock free with some race gas. But the last time I checked, production cars, especially family sedans, do not come with ignition maps set for race gas.
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Old October 26th, 2003, 06:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by bored&stroked
Going to 100octane is like going to 91 in a 6th gen, not only a waste of money but a quicker way of wearing out your engine with all the extra carbon deposits.
Why would you get extra carbon deposits with a higher octane gas? If anything I would think you would get less deposits because higher octane gas contains contains more octane and less heptane or nonane. So theoretically a higher octane gas with a more pure mixture of hydrocarbons should burn more consistantly and leave less uncombusted carbon around to deposit.
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