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Old October 2nd, 2008, 09:32 PM   #1
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P2R Throttle Body Spacer and Thermal Throttle Body Gaskets

Just wanted to give you a 7th Gen Accord V6 guys another great bolt on mod with great gains for the price.

The P2R Throttle Body Spacer and Thermal Throttle Body Gaskets:
- Increase horsepower and torque with this 3/4 inch throttle body spacer.
- Tests on a 06 TL M/T[shown below - similar to Accord V6] produced a 5.5 horsepower and almost 9 ft/lbs of tq gain at the wheels!
- P2R's spacer comes equipped with a 1/8th inch NPT threaded port at the bottom that can be used as an extra vacuum port or nitrous.
- Includes extended bolts, plug, and is polished to a brilliant show-quality shine.





You can find pricing here:

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...d.php?t=171177
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 11:57 AM   #2
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 12:20 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by gizmo2003 View Post
Yes that is a link to P2R's website. Did you have a question about it? If you're referring to the price tis is $79.99 for the TB spacer only. You need two TB gaskets to seal the spacer and we recommend the P2R Thermal TB gaskets so you can reduce IAT's by not having metal to metal contact.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 12:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelerate View Post
Yes that is a link to P2R's website. Did you have a question about it? If you're referring to the price tis is $79.99 for the TB spacer only. You need two TB gaskets to seal the spacer and we recommend the P2R Thermal TB gaskets so you can reduce IAT's by not having metal to metal contact.
IC ok
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 02:25 PM   #5
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I appreciate the new products, but that is an awfully vague dyno.
Was it same day? Same temp? How many runs?

Last time I dyno'd a car I had about a 10-11hp difference just from a back to back run. And that was eliminating the regular dyno tricks of letting the engine cool down longer, or over-inflating the tires, or any of the other good ol' boy tricks (namely the dyno correction factor.)

The fact that they didn't even include those 'minor' details raises a red flag or two for me.

PLUS... TB spacers don't do anything on modern EFI cars. Carb'd cars yes. TBI cars yes. But when the the fuel isn't injected until after the TB (and therefore spacer) the 'longer runner' effect doesn't work anymore.

But don't take my word for it, look it up. I did a quick google search a few years ago when I thought it was a quick ticket to a few cheap hp and found more info than I wanted.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 02:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
I appreciate the new products, but that is an awfully vague dyno.
Was it same day? Same temp? How many runs?

Last time I dyno'd a car I had about a 10-11hp difference just from a back to back run. And that was eliminating the regular dyno tricks of letting the engine cool down longer, or over-inflating the tires, or any of the other good ol' boy tricks (namely the dyno correction factor.)

The fact that they didn't even include those 'minor' details raises a red flag or two for me.

PLUS... TB spacers don't do anything on modern EFI cars. Carb'd cars yes. TBI cars yes. But when the the fuel isn't injected until after the TB (and therefore spacer) the 'longer runner' effect doesn't work anymore.

But don't take my word for it, look it up. I did a quick google search a few years ago when I thought it was a quick ticket to a few cheap hp and found more info than I wanted.
Yes it was done the same day and back to back.

Just for reference here is an independent dyno from a 06+ Civic Si and these gains have been proved over and over again.



A TB spacer will store more volume of air available for induction through the plenum. The thermal gaskets also help in hp increase b/c they reduce intake air temps. There is one gasket placed on each side of the TB spacer.

This isn't some product I just introduced today. This product has been proved again and again on multiple EFI platforms.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 03:18 PM   #7
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Look, I think you sell some good products and I am sure you are a reputable dealer, so I won't comment on any of that.
BUT, this is snake oil of the highest degree. Increased plenum volume?? 3/4"x2"? Are you kidding me!

This is a concept that made sense (and power) on carb'd applications. Then when EFI was in its infancy, it was moved over to TBI applications and it still made some power - Now, with MPFI it is simply a marketing ploy. The theory people claim holds true, doesn't. All you are doing is moving air. Not air/fuel. You haven't increased the flow or velocity of air (which would actually do something), you've just 'hypothetically' increased the volume of the plenum by some tiny amount. What kind of benefit do you think that provides?

And, again, that dyno shows absolutly nothing. Here is a great example of an M3 (E36) showing some impressive improvements...



Similar gains right?

You know what 'mods' he added... 3 minutes of time.
They were back to back runs with NO changes.

This is a mod that is capitalizing on people's inability to seprate fact from fiction.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 03:30 PM   #8
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 04:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
And, again, that dyno shows absolutly nothing. Here is a great example of an M3 (E36) showing some impressive improvements...



Similar gains right?

You know what 'mods' he added... 3 minutes of time.
They were back to back runs with NO changes.

This is a mod that is capitalizing on people's inability to seprate fact from fiction.
Well then how can we really judge any parts ability to make power and how can we really say any part that makes less than 5 HP actually made 5 hp? According to your theory, we would have to say any small gain like that was "snake oil" and was based on inaccuracies in the dyno or engine differences.

I can appreciate what you're saying though. I didn't believe it at first but this part has been dynoed and produced the same results everytime. Yes the volume of air isn't increased dramatically but combined with thermal gaskets which reduce intake air temps it does make some power. It's about 5whp which isn't astronomical but for a $100 mod it's pretty good. P2R uses the same material Hondata uses in their gaskets to help reduce intake air temps, thus allowing hte ECU to make some changes to increase power. It does work when using both pieces in combination with each other. Here are some dynos/info I found of the TB spacer with TB thermal gaskets on a 06+ Civic Si which were independent dynos:

--------------------------------------
From bizzybear on 8thcivic.com

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/bolt-...tml#post945206

These are SAE corrected numbers.... my car is stock other than the spacer we added on the second run....

w/o spacer: 190.9hp & 144.4tq

w spacer: 195.4hp & 146.0tq

an increase of 4.5 peak hp... midrange is an average of about 2hp but u can see for urself... enjoy dyno pix....



w/o spacer:


w spacer:
[/QUOTE]

------------------------------------------------

From sickyute on 8thcivic.com

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/bolt-...ml#post1000243

Figured I would make a post with mods and the amount of power they give since no one has really done it. This would help others in making their choices as they go along modifying their ride.

I can't test and dyno every part out there but I will use the most popular parts and report as I go along.

3 Dynos will be taken after each mod has been added and the same dyno(P2R dyno jet) will be used for all runs.

Temperature, mileage, oil(type and percentage) and octane will all be included.

All numbers will be 2007 SAE corrected and in WHP (wheel horse power)

There will be No cool down between runs.. (u can check the times on the dyno graph to be sure of that)

Please study the whole graph and not just peak power ...
I will edit the first post as i go along so that info doesn't get lost through many pages :thumb:

i'll sticky it ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other mods that may affect results just so u know ...
18" Rays gram lights 57s (lighter than stock)
225/40 tires
tein flex suspension
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mods: STOCK
Temp: 87-F
Numbers: 2007 SAE corrected
Car: 2007 FA5
Mileage: 2440
Oil: stock @ 50%
2 runs because the third was identical to the second

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mods: P2R throttle body spacer + 2 P2R throttle body gaskets
Temp: 92-F
Numbers: 2007 SAE corrected
Car: 2007 FA5
Mileage: 2540
Oil: Stock @ 50%
the runs show the WHP and WTQ made compared to stock ...
Run 1 Stock VS Run 1 with the above mods


Run 2 Stock VS Run 2 with the above mods


3rd runs were left out because they were identical to the second :thumb:

As you can see the combination of the P2R throttle body spacer and gaskets make good power ... IMO it's enough for you to feel and it actually feels stronger than the numbers show ...

NB: the dyno shows peak power made but it actually makes more power in the mid-range/at points throughout the RPM range than the difference between stock + modded peak power!!!

The results are pretty consistent ... hardly any loss of power :thumb:
increase from bottom to top
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mods: P2R throttle body spacer, 2 P2R throttle body gaskets + P2R IMG added
Temp: 94-F (2 degrees hotter than above)
Numbers: 2007 SAE corrected
Car: 2007 FA5
Mileage: 2598
Oil: Stock @ 50%
This graph shows Stock VS TB spacer + gaskets VS newly added P2R IMG as indicated on the graph :thumb:


some will say well the gasket only gives like 1whp and 3wtq?? just keep in mind that's at the peak ... look at the whole graph :thumb:

also watch how consistent the numbers are after back to back to back runs ... power hardly decreases if any which means the car is being kept cooler. As everyone knows the numbers tend to go lower as the runs increase :thumb:
again power from bottom to top ... and keeps consistency
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 05:08 PM   #10
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Would the throttle body accumulate more carbs faster with that spacer on instead of as is? My experience of using the thermoblock spacer from outlaw engineering tells me that it does accumulate a lot more carbs a lot faster on the butterfly. Any thoughts or tests on that?
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 05:13 PM   #11
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What are carbs?
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 05:34 PM   #12
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The Helix TB spacer I put on my AV6 made the engine hard to start everytime, and would eventually start after about 10 tries. It Also created a loug annoying hissing sound everytime I pushed on the gas.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 05:47 PM   #13
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Excelerate, I appreciate the time and thought you put into that post. I still disagree with you completely, but I will say it was a well documented session with the civic SI.

My worries are 3 fold.

First, all dyno's were at P2R's facility and dyno. Not to say they have a vested interest in showing their parts perform... but........

Second, the guy says that his gain of 2.6 whp 'feels' like much more. I refuse to believe his butt dyno is so well calibrated that the 2.6hp gain he made with the spacer feels like engaging warp drive, but the 1.1hp gain he makes just from doing a 2nd dyno (or any 2 drives) doesn't register at all. Thats about 50%... A very impressive and well calibrated butt dyno indeed (especially since most say it takes about 10whp to register a 'non-mental' change)

Third, you mentioned consistantcy as one of the great things this mod brings.
Ok, I agree that the HP runs stock to stock vs mod'd to mod'd were less consistant. BUT, it was pretty close. I calculated .6% difference vs .16% difference. (And that does not mean I want to see new marketing saying its 375% more consistant... thats not how it works...) BUT, if I give you that, you also need to look at torque consistancy since its at least as important.
Copmparing stock vs stock to mod vs mod, the spacer'd car showed a shockingly high (sarcasm) 1.01% change run to run vs the stock cars .81% change.

So it made the hp more consistant and the torque less consistant. I'd call that a wash at best.

Overall for those with the money it is certainly a blingy way to drop $130 on your engine and you could do worse, but IMO (and countless other, do a google search) the biggest gain you'll see is from the .002% weight difference in your wallet.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 05:47 PM   #14
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I got it on my v6.


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Old October 3rd, 2008, 06:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
Excelerate, I appreciate the time and thought you put into that post. I still disagree with you completely, but I will say it was a well documented session with the civic SI.

My worries are 3 fold.

First, all dyno's were at P2R's facility and dyno. Not to say they have a vested interest in showing their parts perform... but........
Only the TL dyno in the first post of this thread was done at P2R's facilities. All the other dynos given were independent dynos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
Second, the guy says that his gain of 2.6 whp 'feels' like much more. I refuse to believe his butt dyno is so well calibrated that the 2.6hp gain he made with the spacer feels like engaging warp drive, but the 1.1hp gain he makes just from doing a 2nd dyno (or any 2 drives) doesn't register at all. Thats about 50%... A very impressive and well calibrated butt dyno indeed (especially since most say it takes about 10whp to register a 'non-mental' change)
The member said:

As you can see the combination of the P2R throttle body spacer and gaskets make good power ... IMO it's enough for you to feel and it actually feels stronger than the numbers show ...

All he said was it was enough for you to feel. Regardless of what he said, though, and what you think of his butt dyno the dyno plots speak for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
Third, you mentioned consistantcy as one of the great things this mod brings.
Ok, I agree that the HP runs stock to stock vs mod'd to mod'd were less consistant. BUT, it was pretty close. I calculated .6% difference vs .16% difference. (And that does not mean I want to see new marketing saying its 375% more consistant... thats not how it works...) BUT, if I give you that, you also need to look at torque consistancy since its at least as important.
Copmparing stock vs stock to mod vs mod, the spacer'd car showed a shockingly high (sarcasm) 1.01% change run to run vs the stock cars .81% change.

So it made the hp more consistant and the torque less consistant. I'd call that a wash at best.

Overall for those with the money it is certainly a blingy way to drop $130 on your engine and you could do worse, but IMO (and countless other, do a google search) the biggest gain you'll see is from the .002% weight difference in your wallet.
You can call it a wash if you like. This is the internet; everyone has an opinion. However, I have provided a number of dyno plots demonstrating the gains of this spacer on a number of different vehicles. If you feel that your opinion is worth more than the independent dynos presented then that is up to you. I didn't even introduce the countless opinions of many other members with Honda V6 engines who disagree with your opinion and think the mod is a great mod b/c I knew you would said that is hearsay. That is why I presented dynos to prove to you the gains that are made. It is up to you really provide evidence, not your opinion and Google hearsay, that states otherwise.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 06:21 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Excelerate View Post
You can call it a wash if you like. This is the internet; everyone has an opinion. However, I have provided a number of dyno plots demonstrating the gains of this spacer on a number of different vehicles. If you feel that your opinion is worth more than the independent dynos presented then that is up to you. I didn't even introduce the countless opinions of many other members with Honda V6 engines who disagree with your opinion and think the mod is a great mod b/c I knew you would said that is hearsay. That is why I presented dynos to prove to you the gains that are made. It is up to you really provide evidence, not your opinion and Google hearsay, that states otherwise.
I figure my opinion is worth about what everyone paid to read it. However, when posting on a public forum you will get the opinions of the public. And thats kind of the idea!

I have been in the car game for a while and I learned most of what I know the hard/expensive way. I figure the least I can do is help out some of the new guys save a few bucks. I have absolutly nothing to gain or lose from my opinions on any product and those who wish to believe me are positively welcome and those who disagree with me are even more welcome. I love talking cars and this is why I watch the boards.

So you and I will just agree to disagree on this one, and though I wish it was in a general 'should I buy a TB spacer' thread and not one where you are introducing a new product, those are the breaks I guess.

Either way good discussion and I'd still buy from your shop (just not this part )
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 07:13 PM   #17
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The space will work but after ten minute of running your car, the intake temperature is gonna be the same. lol
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 09:05 PM   #18
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that funny it works while the car is cold. wh=at if u had CAI
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Old October 4th, 2008, 10:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me View Post
I figure my opinion is worth about what everyone paid to read it. However, when posting on a public forum you will get the opinions of the public. And thats kind of the idea!

I have been in the car game for a while and I learned most of what I know the hard/expensive way. I figure the least I can do is help out some of the new guys save a few bucks. I have absolutly nothing to gain or lose from my opinions on any product and those who wish to believe me are positively welcome and those who disagree with me are even more welcome. I love talking cars and this is why I watch the boards.

So you and I will just agree to disagree on this one, and though I wish it was in a general 'should I buy a TB spacer' thread and not one where you are introducing a new product, those are the breaks I guess.

Either way good discussion and I'd still buy from your shop (just not this part )
We can agree to disagree. Thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to working with you in the future.
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Old October 4th, 2008, 10:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by AcCoRd16 View Post
The space will work but after ten minute of running your car, the intake temperature is gonna be the same. lol
The IAT reduction is not b/c of the spacer; it's b/c there are two thermal gaskets on each side of the spacer. And believe it does help and it does reduce IAT's. With the thermal TB gaskets and thermal IMG you will find not necessarily that you make a lot more power but that you sustain power over repeated runs.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 03:28 PM   #21
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I am not a big fan of excelerate but I will say this much, I've had it on my car since it was released and I will vouch for it, if you reroute your coolant lines so they do not route in through the throttle body you will see greater gains, under hood temperatures on the j-series is maniac

I have both the spacer and the intake manifold gasket, at under $160 it helps alot

but that is just my opinion
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Old February 7th, 2013, 06:32 PM   #22
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Super Thread Revival. The reawakened one has hit again!! LOL

Ok, my $.02
It works, why, not sure. TB coolant bypass will help increase this mods output. Is it a drastic HP TQ gain, uhh NO. Temps dropped by 2 lines (not sure what degree drop,sorry) and in FL it helps a lot. Put the IM Thremal Gasket and you get a descent temp drop. I run 2 lines (again sorry for the very scientific readings) higher then a buddy of has a Mishimoto (I think that's how its spelled) Racing Thermostat.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by accord325 View Post
Super Thread Revival. The reawakened one has hit again!! LOL

Ok, my $.02
It works, why, not sure. TB coolant bypass will help increase this mods output. Is it a drastic HP TQ gain, uhh NO. Temps dropped by 2 lines (not sure what degree drop,sorry) and in FL it helps a lot. Put the IM Thremal Gasket and you get a descent temp drop. I run 2 lines (again sorry for the very scientific readings) higher then a buddy of has a Mishimoto (I think that's how its spelled) Racing Thermostat.
The gasket may help for a while (first 10-15 minutes), but that is all. The whole point of the gasket is to not allow the heat to transfer from one metal to another. Which is great, but.. How hot does your engine bay get in the Florida summer? Probably 150+ and all that heat is around the throttle body and most if not all of the cai/sri tubing. Metal conducts heat, very well. Say the air your sucking in is (for ease of math 100 degrees and your engine bay is 150 (it probably even more than that)) with the cooler 100 degree air and 150 degree air working against each other, you could say the average temp is 125. The gasket might maybe possibly lower the temp by a little, but not enough to register any power gains.


As far as the TB spacer, well I doubt it does much of anything. It may slightly increase velocity which can give power, but it is at the beginning of the intake. Once the air gets through the manifold and heads there would be no difference in velocity.

Just my 2 cents on those subjects.
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Old February 12th, 2013, 10:24 AM   #24
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^^ This. I have the spacer sandwiched between two IMGs as suggested by Excelerate, but I spent money on these products as a little extra dress up for the engine bay, and because it matches my P2R fuel rail.

I wasn't expecting a massive gain, and didn't get one. But there was some small difference (Might be due to all the other mods working in conjunction with one another)

I think the most useful thing about this spacer is that it has a threaded port already made in the rear. If you ever had plans of running nitrous, this eliminates the need to drill a hole in your intake
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