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Old September 17th, 2009, 07:50 AM   #1
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a thought about countersteer

In thinking about taking an exit off my local highway it occurs to me that, with a very mild amount of oversteer, "countersteer" only involves holding the wheel steady and resisting and not encouraging the rear slide, rather than allowing the wheel to slightly move away from the direction of the rear wheels and reinforcing the oversteer.

(I hope a non-part related discussion is kosher on this forum.)
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Old September 17th, 2009, 08:46 AM   #2
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uh...wat?
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Old September 17th, 2009, 08:55 AM   #3
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trying to oversteer a front wheel drive car is rather dangerous, because your rear wheels arent moved out by loss of traction from the power going there. It's just momentum from before entering the turn that pushes them out, as a result you must be going faster so you run the risk of overcoming your front tires especially under acceleration. And if you are running a stock suspension it's even worse beecause you are overloading your rear left wheel and pulling weight off your right front further increasing the traction loss up front.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 09:11 AM   #4
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to correct over steer, straighten out the front wheel and apply the gas. over correcting will lift your rear end and you will lose it.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 09:13 AM   #5
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Ah, that makes sense. I was actually thinking about taking my bimmer into the turn--a whole different animal (rear wheel drive). I wasn't thinking clearly when I posted onto this FWD forum. But your explanation is very helpful, thanks.

So my question for the FWD car is: Will thicker sway bars fore and aft give the car more stability in the turn, preventing oversteer (and understeer?)?

Last edited by stevehecht; September 17th, 2009 at 09:19 AM.. Reason: follow-up question
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Old September 17th, 2009, 09:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk04v6 View Post
to correct over steer, straighten out the front wheel and apply the gas.
I've used this technique a number of times when my rear has stepped out on me. Only way to safely control and correct for it in a FWD car.

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Originally Posted by stevehecht View Post
So my question for the FWD car is: Will thicker sway bars fore and aft give the car more stability in the turn, preventing oversteer (and understeer?)?
For a FWD car...
Thicker front only = Understeer (front end will push/plow causing the car to go wide)
Thicker rear only = Oversteer (in some cases snap oversteer where the rear comes out rather quickly and unexpectedly)
Both thicker = Improved neutral handling

I have the TL-S 20mm sway in the rear only. While I love the handling(slight oversteer), my car does tend to snap oversteer when pushed really hard in the corners or when I take my rear rubber to its limits of adhesion. It's happened to me a number of times(both intentional and unintentional) and each time I pulled myself out of it. It definitely takes some getting used to, but I have grown to expect and anticipate it under certain conditions. Still, it can be quite dangerous and does manage to catch me of guard once in a while. Luckly I've never had an incident.
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Last edited by Celestion; September 17th, 2009 at 09:59 AM..
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Old September 17th, 2009, 10:11 AM   #7
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Never heard of the term 'counter steer' only over/under steer. With sliding I've always turned the wheel in the direction I need to go, apply the throttle cautiously and steer out of the slide to regain control. I've made all my FWD cars run with a slight oversteer due to a heavy rear sway bar so I've gotten quite used to the rear stiffness. This accord even with 20mm sway and more recent install tokicos/eibach pro-kits it feels very neutral to me.

To prevent any sort of this loss of control I'll use load balancing to shift the weight of the car on the suspension by applying the brake for a moment to move weight of the car from one single corner to allow me to keep the momentum. I never have to brake through the entire corner since it only takes a moment to shift the weight.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 10:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk04v6 View Post
to correct over steer, straighten out the front wheel and apply the gas. over correcting will lift your rear end and you will lose it.
here's an extreme example of correcting oversteer in a FWD. You can see him mash the gas to pull the front end in line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU
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Old September 17th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestion View Post
I've used this technique a number of times when my rear has stepped out on me. Only way to safely control and correct for it in a FWD car.


For a FWD car...
Thicker front only = Understeer (front end will push/plow causing the car to go wide)
Thicker rear only = Oversteer (in some cases snap oversteer where the rear comes out rather quickly and unexpectedly)
Both thicker = Improved neutral handling

I have the TL-S 20mm sway in the rear only. While I love the handling(slight oversteer), my car does tend to snap oversteer when pushed really hard in the corners or when I take my rear rubber to its limits of adhesion. It's happened to me a number of times(both intentional and unintentional) and each time I pulled myself out of it. It definitely takes some getting used to, but I have grown to expect and anticipate it under certain conditions. Still, it can be quite dangerous and does manage to catch me of guard once in a while. Luckly I've never had an incident.
Thanks for the summary concerning sway bar function, that's what I thought. I now have a 17mm rear bar. I didn't go for the 20mm for the reason you stated (sudden oversteer). I don't trust myself as a driver to respond appropriately, especially with wet or icy roads. Adding the front bar and thickening the rear to 20 will give my car more stability at a higher threshold (to be explored cautiously).
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Old September 17th, 2009, 01:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stevehecht View Post
Thanks for the summary concerning sway bar function, that's what I thought. I now have a 17mm rear bar. I didn't go for the 20mm for the reason you stated (sudden oversteer). I don't trust myself as a driver to respond appropriately, especially with wet or icy roads. Adding the front bar and thickening the rear to 20 will give my car more stability at a higher threshold (to be explored cautiously).
The 17mm bar is a safe compromise if only doing rear. Going with both TL-S bars would be another route that would give you much improved and predictable handling.

And since you mentioned weather...
High(stiff) spring rates and 20mm rear bar is especially tricky in the winter. Trust me! You get practically no body roll or weight transfer, which is what you need when cornering to dig your tires into snow, slush, ice, ect...

I Auto-X my car. Its a great, safe way to get to know both you and your cars limits. It also helps you get a feel for what suspension/tire setups work best for you and your driving style. Its definitely made me a better, more confident driver behind the wheel of my Accord.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red02AccordV6_2 View Post
here's an extreme example of correcting oversteer in a FWD. You can see him mash the gas to pull the front end in line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU
wow that was impressive. the comment at the end was .

And as ive said before, with the 20mm only in good weather the car is very easy to control even in spirted driving, as long as you break enough before the turn, roll through and can accelerate out without letting off or especially breaking again.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 08:40 PM   #12
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And since you mentioned weather...
High(stiff) spring rates and 20mm rear bar is especially tricky in the winter. Trust me! You get practically no body roll or weight transfer, which is what you need when cornering to dig your tires into snow, slush, ice, ect...

I Auto-X my car. Its a great, safe way to get to know both you and your cars limits. It also helps you get a feel for what suspension/tire setups work best for you and your driving style. Its definitely made me a better, more confident driver behind the wheel of my Accord.
I have stock springs on my V6 right now, so not a problem there. I do autoX my '90 BMW 325i, though I've only done it a few times so far. I don't think I'll be autoXing my AT V6 though.

I just stumbled across this site: http://www.drivingfast.net/index.htm. Looks like I have my bedtime reading for the evening...unless my wife talks me into watching Project Runway with her instead. Hmmm, wonder which I'd rather do.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 10:38 PM   #13
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I totally feel you guys with non-stock suspension. All my previous cars I upgraded the suspensions on them and winter can be tricky if your not careful. All I can say is know your route, go slow, be a smooth operator, and everything will be honky dory
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