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Old January 4th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #1
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Currently testing E85 fuel on stock ECU on 03 accord v6 6 speed

Hey guys i dont know if this has been done before but here goes. Ok before anyone freaks out im currently testing how E85 fuel reacts to our cars on stock Ecu. Just as a heads up in case anyone was wondering I own TWO 6 speed 2003 accord v6's and this test is being done on the car that is not my daily lol (just in case). My current mods are:

Stock intake box resonator removed K&N drop in filter
T/B coolant bypass
P2R thermal T/B gasket
IAT Sensor relocation to front of Airbox (No heatsoak)
RV6 precat deletes
OEM crush j-pipe
3inch j-pipe back to dual 2.5inch exhaust (y-pipe begins at rear sway bar)
Gutted interior(no passenger seat,rear seats,gutted & scraped trunk,no a/c compressor or condensor custom serpentine belt for a/c compressor delete)

Just a heads up i made 240whp on this setup with the mods listed above. I know i posted a dyno before of me making 245whp but that was on a DIFFERENT car that is currently my daily...yea idk wtf but i did a compression test on both cars and my daily makes 215psi across the board and my number 2 accord (current test car) makes 200psi across the board. So please understand again i have two accords here and this test is being done on my number two accord.(Not my daily driver)

Ok so let me put it all together for you.

(My number 2 Accord) On 93 octane I made 227whp and 196wtq with all the mods listed above EXCEPT precat deletes. Oh and i had an intake manifold from an automatic (no dual stage butterflies).

(My number 2 Accord)Next on 93 octane i made 240whp with all the mods listed above including precat deletes and switching to the 6 speed manifold with dual stage intake butterflies. I dint get a torque reading.
I'd say not a bad gain ~13whp ill guess and say ~5wtq gain.

Ok so thats where i stand before E85.

Now i recently put E85 gasoline in my car and i have run a half tank through ~150 miles. So far i'd say its been ok overall. No misfires no check engines etc... Physically the car likes part throttle alot better...the spark plugs have a bright white insulator (signs of lean condition)...Now i will try to explain the road test the best i can. I have run 40 roll races before against the same people when i was on 93 octane. I raced the same person now and the results are as follows. On 93 octane it was a steady pull to ~2 cars by 120. On E85 i drop a car back at the start, by the end of third i am right next to him, By the end of fourth i am ~2.5 cars and pullin hard. Wheew! ok enuf typing i will keep you guys informed as time goes on... please feel free to ask any questions or criticisms..i havent got to the dyno yet but i think i need more time. MY goal here is to see if the stock ECU can adjust for the fuel overtime and improve overall performance. I have alot of info i can add but i tried to give everyone the basics for now.

Overall i think the car is a bit sluggish but not very noticeable at full throttle until ~80mph then it starts to pull aggressively...everyday driving and idle is completely normal
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:11 PM   #2
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Hrmmmm, this seems weird because Evo owners have to convert their cars to E-85 and you just pumped it into your tank like normal.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #3
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You have to run 15% more fuel with E85
e85 is very dirty fuel I would run a fuel filter and check it once a month

My friend runs it in his s2000 dyno 735whp on 34lbs
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #4
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is this safe?
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:27 PM   #5
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:35 PM   #6
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so ur saying it pulls harder?
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Old January 4th, 2010, 10:39 PM   #7
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you need to change up your fuel lines to ones that can withstand the e85 and change other stuff too if im not wrong.. i seen alot of people with K swaps that run that fuel setup.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:29 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Dtownz Thrillah View Post
Hrmmmm, this seems weird because Evo owners have to convert their cars to E-85 and you just pumped it into your tank like normal.
yup jus kinda went to the pump one day without making any changes and pumped E85... like i said so far no signs of trouble after about 150 miles of hard driving
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:32 AM   #9
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you need to change up your fuel lines to ones that can withstand the e85 and change other stuff too if im not wrong.. i seen alot of people with K swaps that run that fuel setup.
i have heard that too...but i will tell you honestly this test i honestly just based on theory i havent really done much research as to wut exactly i need...im jus tired of the he said she said so im jus gonna try it for as long as the car will run with it and let you guys know if i have any problems in the future...
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:53 AM   #10
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the possibilities,

you might foul your plugs, you might foul your 02 sensor, and you might foul your cats..

You will get poor gas mileage as your car is not designed for E85, and your performance will be reduced drastically.

You should change your fuel lines to stainless steel lines.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #11
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i hav no cats..and i will look into the fuel line issue...i think that also i will need a step colder spark plugs....these are the little things i am putting to the test to c exactly how durable the OEM equipment is.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:20 PM   #12
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How much is the E85 per gallon compared to 93?
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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:00 PM   #13
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How much is the E85 per gallon compared to 93?
cheaper from what ive seen around here. E85 is about $2.50 per while 91 (highest we can get around here in socal ) is $3.10




on a side note, my friend with an 06 evo 9 has been running E85 mixed with 91 for a year straight with no ill affects, it is tuned for it though =/
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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:29 PM   #14
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How much is the E85 per gallon compared to 93?
E85 is 2.29 a gallon for me
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Old January 5th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #15
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I've looked into E85 for quite some time too, I have a co-worker that's been mixing it with 91 in his car for several years now. Here's what I've gathered/read for using E85.

1. Fuel Lines - no your fuel lines will not melt or disintegrate from using E85, all gasoline(in USA) is already mixed with ethanol (10%), so most newer cars, I believe 1995+ are designed with that in mind. The problem is when you start using E85 on older vehicles that already have gunk in the tank and lines that the higher alcohol content from ethanol desolves and clog stuff up. 1995 and older cars + E85 without conversion = BAD

2. E85 = less stored energy. E85 < gasoline < diesel, but it's higher octane, so you can advance timing and better for boost but you end up using more per unit compared to gas as it's compared to diesel to make the same power. You will get less mileage and have to fill up more often.

3. Stock cats should be fine with E85 as long as your car is in good condition, see #1. Remember your car was already designed to run on some ethanol!

4. Since our ECUs aren't programmed to run E85, it's probably trying to compensate for the high(~104) octane by adding timing and/or pulling fuel which is why your plugs are white. That's why when you first accelerate, you bog from the extra octane that your ECU can't compensate for, then when it does, you pull on your friend.

E85 is a cleaner(marginally) fuel compared to gasoline, not very dirty like someone else said.

I've been wanting to try this on my car, but I hate being the guniea pig, so thanks for being the first for us Cubano

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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SleekAV6 View Post
I've looked into E85 for quite some time too, I have a co-worker that's been mixing it with 91 in his car for several years now. Here's what I've gathered/read for using E85.

1. Fuel Lines - no your fuel lines will not melt or disintegrate from using E85, all gasoline(in USA) is already mixed with ethanol (10%), so most newer cars, I believe 1995+ are designed with that in mind. The problem is when you start using E85 on older vehicles that already have gunk in the tank and lines that the higher alcohol content from ethanol desolves and clog stuff up. 1995 and older cars + E85 without conversion = BAD

2. E85 = less stored energy. E85 < gasoline < diesel, but it's higher octane, so you can advance timing and better for boost but you end up using more per unit compared to gas as it's compared to diesel to make the same power. You will get less mileage and have to fill up more often.

3. Stock cats should be fine with E85 as long as your car is in good condition, see #1. Remember your car was already designed to run on some ethanol!

4. Since our ECUs aren't programmed to run E85, it's probably trying to compensate for the high(~104) octane by adding timing and/or pulling fuel which is why your plugs are white. That's why when you first accelerate, you bog from the extra octane that your ECU can't compensate for, then when it does, you pull on your friend.

E85 is a cleaner(marginally) fuel compared to gasoline, not very dirty like someone else said.

I've been wanting to try this on my car, but I hate being the guniea pig, so thanks for being the first for us Cubano
thanks for the positive reinforcement...i could use more of that..i mean i already know the worst that could happen...

But i dont mind being the guinea pig its not a big deal i mean its not like im testing a Ferrari here lol jus havin fun....same thing when i tested the 3 inch out to 2.5 dual exhaust when everyone swears u would lose torque etc. i actually gained torque and hp across the board i want to run the car for awhile before i go to the dyno again i mean i already feel more power up top but im confident my down low will get bettr over time
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:37 PM   #17
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ive been wondering about E85 for a long time now. only reason i couldnt be the guinea pig is cuz i only have one car and she's my daily. waiting to see dyno numbers and if you can get the spark plug issue solved.
thanks for trying this out, keep us posted
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Old January 5th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #18
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Also keep in mind E85 burns MUCH hotter, I would really check the tops of your pistons with a bore scope, it would not surprise me that since you are not tuned for it you are blowing fine aluminum particles off the tops of the pistons and combustion chamber........
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:24 AM   #19
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Also keep in mind E85 burns MUCH hotter, I would really check the tops of your pistons with a bore scope, it would not surprise me that since you are not tuned for it you are blowing fine aluminum particles off the tops of the pistons and combustion chamber........
i will check it out for sure thanks...i was always under the impression E85 burned a bit cooler than gasoline...and im basically gonna run the E85 until the motor quits then pull the motor break it down and see exactly what went wrong along with what ive learned on the way

O another thing i wanted to add is my oil level and color has not changed at all i kno its much easier to take pictures but i just began this project and i havent had much time as of yet
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #20
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ive been wondering about E85 for a long time now. only reason i couldnt be the guinea pig is cuz i only have one car and she's my daily. waiting to see dyno numbers and if you can get the spark plug issue solved.
thanks for trying this out, keep us posted
lol ye i understand....the only observation about the spark plugs is the insulator is whiter than the spark plugs on my daily accord (i run 93 octane in the daily).... and i will go to the dyno once the temp warms up over here i want to dyno in ~70 degree weather same as i dynod the 240whp last time
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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:34 AM   #21
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I know its extra money for an engine that (to you) seems rather replaceable, but I can't help but think the money spent on an AEM FI/C and a Wide band 02 would be worth it to let you (street) tune for the increased octane/hp potential.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:39 AM   #22
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^Well, you bring a excellent point, E85 is 85% ethenol, with is a form of Alcahol, so the target AFR is different ( http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tec...correction.htm), this is where the tuning comes in when running E85. Our cars use 2 wideband O2 sensors close coupled to the heads in the top of the pre-cats, the stock ECU is looking for AFR values based off of gasoline not E85 so the ECU is aiming for a bad target......
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:56 AM   #23
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I know its extra money for an engine that (to you) seems rather replaceable, but I can't help but think the money spent on an AEM FI/C and a Wide band 02 would be worth it to let you (street) tune for the increased octane/hp potential.
i agree that a piggyback system is useful but i get my motors from a local junkyard for 600 buks out the door and i do all the removal and installation myself...and i dont believe in piggy bak tuning any how...once i see just how tolerant the engine, fuel lines, injectors etc.. are to E85 my next project will be to convert to cable throttle and run a compatible standalone tuning system
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #24
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i agree that a piggyback system is useful but i get my motors from a local junkyard for 600 buks out the door and i do all the removal and installation myself...and i dont believe in piggy bak tuning any how...once i see just how tolerant the engine, fuel lines, injectors etc.. are to E85 my next project will be to convert to cable throttle and run a compatible standalone tuning system
I'm lost. You'd run a stand alone engine management ($$$$$$) for the next engine build, but wouldn't change to higher flow injectors, higher flow fuel pump & AN fuel lines?

You'd run out of headroom in those items well before you ran out of tunability in the piggyback, and we already know that the aftermarket pieces would be fine with E85 because they've been designed to be.

I realize you also said your purpose was to test the ECU's ability to change itself to E85's unique parameters, but I just don't know if it has the capability to adjust itself to something that doesn't perform in line with its set assumptions (based on gasoline's known performance).

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I think there's a reason every performance car running E85, was tuned, to run E85.
There is a lot of potential to be had with this fuel, and I believe the stock fuel lines, pump & injectors may just work, but I don't think our ECU is clever enough to optimize its fuel mapping to burn rates it's never been programmed to know.

It is certainly working adequately (since you've been driving it) but the white plugs scream to me its not managing itself very well (and I thought the ECU gathered info for new fuel trims rather quickly.)

Since your a performance guy anyway, I guess I'd just like to see what you could do with a proper tune....
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #25
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I'm lost. You'd run a stand alone engine management ($$$$$$) for the next engine build, but wouldn't change to higher flow injectors, higher flow fuel pump & AN fuel lines?

You'd run out of headroom in those items well before you ran out of tunability in the piggyback, and we already know that the aftermarket pieces would be fine with E85 because they've been designed to be.

I realize you also said your purpose was to test the ECU's ability to change itself to E85's unique parameters, but I just don't know if it has the capability to adjust itself to something that doesn't perform in line with its set assumptions (based on gasoline's known performance).

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I think there's a reason every performance car running E85, was tuned, to run E85.
There is a lot of potential to be had with this fuel, and I believe the stock fuel lines, pump & injectors may just work, but I don't think our ECU is clever enough to optimize its fuel mapping to burn rates it's never been programmed to know.

It is certainly working adequately (since you've been driving it) but the white plugs scream to me its not managing itself very well (and I thought the ECU gathered info for new fuel trims rather quickly.)

Since your a performance guy anyway, I guess I'd just like to see what you could do with a proper tune....
well ill tell u i already can tell there is potential becuz i am approx a car faster up top right now on the stock ecu.... i cant imagine tuning on a standalone the possibilities will be very nice... i already see the potential of a standalone just on 93 octane... E85 will be interesting...and i kno i can spend all this money and buy injectors and lines etc...but the idea here is to minimize cost now so i dont just waste money on aftermarket parts if the OEM pieces can handle it.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #26
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First here are some links to read:

Great site with alot of info.
http://e85fuel.com/index.php

a powerpoint slideshow with some good info:
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB...999e8

another good E85 thread:
http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=44
from a E85 forum
http://e85forum.com/index.php

informative post from NASIOC forum:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...03341

wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

a thread on e85 lambda:
http://www.innovatemotorsports...=3175

Here's a really good link off the MegaSquirt site. Lot's of good technical information and conversions as always.(Even has a flow rate calculator)
http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm

Here's one pertaining to how the wideband sensor operates specifically to ethanol.
http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/
(look at links at bottom)


Here are some of the most asked questions:

What/if any modification is needed on the fuel system?
No modification is needed to run E85, a stock honda fuel system will work.
there are some Subaru guys that have been running e85 for 2+years on with no problems
here is a blip "Gasoline provides a protective coating on metal, sealing it from the corrosive effects of air and water."
in this link: http://www.eere.energy.gov/afd...i?660
if you are worried about, you can change the lines, it wont hurt anything.

edit: here is some info if you are running a fuel cell that is aluminum:





about the stock honda tanks:


How does it affect gas mileage?
this all depends on how you drive the car, typically, gas mileage will decrease ~10-25%

What A/F ratio do i tune E85 to?

generally when switching from gas to e85, ~30% more fuel and ~3* of timing will need to be added (this info takin from what servion has seen while tuning gas--&gt;e85 cars
here is what servion says about timing:

What does "summer/winter blend" mean in relation to E85?
because it may be harder to start a car using ethynol during cold weather, they have 2 different blends.
the summer blend is 85% ethynol 15% gas
the winter blend is 70% ethynol 30% gas
the more gas in the winter blend is supposed to help on cold startups.
you will have to talk to the station owner (or the person that orders the e85 for the station) to find out when the change over to a winter blend.

What octane is E85?
it will vary from station to station alittle, but in general, the E85 octane is 105
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:10 PM   #27
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im really doubting that this is safe. cuban bob dyno this beast
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:23 PM   #28
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i want to wait a bit before i dyno
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chemik View Post
First here are some links to read:

Great site with alot of info.
http://e85fuel.com/index.php

a powerpoint slideshow with some good info:
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB...999e8

another good E85 thread:
http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=44
from a E85 forum
http://e85forum.com/index.php

informative post from NASIOC forum:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forum...03341

wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

a thread on e85 lambda:
http://www.innovatemotorsports...=3175

Here's a really good link off the MegaSquirt site. Lot's of good technical information and conversions as always.(Even has a flow rate calculator)
http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm

Here's one pertaining to how the wideband sensor operates specifically to ethanol.
http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/
(look at links at bottom)


Here are some of the most asked questions:

What/if any modification is needed on the fuel system?
No modification is needed to run E85, a stock honda fuel system will work.
there are some Subaru guys that have been running e85 for 2+years on with no problems
here is a blip "Gasoline provides a protective coating on metal, sealing it from the corrosive effects of air and water."
in this link: http://www.eere.energy.gov/afd...i?660
if you are worried about, you can change the lines, it wont hurt anything.

edit: here is some info if you are running a fuel cell that is aluminum:





about the stock honda tanks:


How does it affect gas mileage?
this all depends on how you drive the car, typically, gas mileage will decrease ~10-25%

What A/F ratio do i tune E85 to?

generally when switching from gas to e85, ~30% more fuel and ~3* of timing will need to be added (this info takin from what servion has seen while tuning gas--&gt;e85 cars
here is what servion says about timing:

What does "summer/winter blend" mean in relation to E85?
because it may be harder to start a car using ethynol during cold weather, they have 2 different blends.
the summer blend is 85% ethynol 15% gas
the winter blend is 70% ethynol 30% gas
the more gas in the winter blend is supposed to help on cold startups.
you will have to talk to the station owner (or the person that orders the e85 for the station) to find out when the change over to a winter blend.

What octane is E85?
it will vary from station to station alittle, but in general, the E85 octane is 105
very nice info thanks
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Old January 8th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #30
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jus wanted to give everyone an update i did an air/fuel ratio reading today on pure E85 gas and it was very lean to lean for my liking so ive decided to scrap the pure E85 and go for a blend to see if i can regulate the air/fuels a bit im thinkin of mixing 4 gallons total...3 parts 93 octane (E10) and one part E85...for an average ratio of ~E29.....i will let everyone know how the air/fuel reading goes
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