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Old August 12th, 2011, 10:28 AM   #1
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RV6 Pre cat delete vs HFPC

Is anybody running richie's high flow pre cats? I'm wondering the major differences between the pre cat deletes and high flow pre cats, as far as power,smell,and sound differences. I know alot on the deletes just haven't heard much on the high flow pre cats
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Old August 12th, 2011, 11:13 AM   #2
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high flow or not, it's too close to the cylinder heads thus holds heat which results to lack of power, efficiency, and also can result in pre-mature engine failure. You are better off with Pre-cat deletes(test pipe)
I've seen stock pre-cats blow out on stock cars. Dam green emissions/ tree hugging bastards really ruin a good engine design.

NO engine will run good with a restriction design like that. That's why alot of these engines have oil consumption issues at over 100k, etc. Holding too much heat in the cylinder heads = castastrophic failure. Historically, Honda engines lasted over 200k easily. These added emissions component really put a damper in that life span.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #3
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NO engine will run good with a restriction design like that. That's why alot of these engines have oil consumption issues at over 100k, etc. Holding too much heat in the cylinder heads = castastrophic failure. Historically, Honda engines lasted over 200k easily. These added emissions component really put a damper in that life span.
That's very interesting. I never would have thought this adversely affects the longevity of the engine.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 11:48 AM   #4
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high flow or not, it's too close to the cylinder heads thus holds heat which results to lack of power, efficiency, and also can result in pre-mature engine failure.
I like reading this fact right here.
Not to mention test pipes are significantly cheaper than any high flow cats and always produces more results.
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Old August 12th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #5
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I would go precats deletes which I'm getting soon with v3 jpipe. so does the smell stay forever with precats deletes?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #6
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high flow or not, it's too close to the cylinder heads thus holds heat which results to lack of power, efficiency, and also can result in pre-mature engine failure. You are better off with Pre-cat deletes(test pipe)
I've seen stock pre-cats blow out on stock cars. Dam green emissions/ tree hugging bastards really ruin a good engine design.

NO engine will run good with a restriction design like that. That's why alot of these engines have oil consumption issues at over 100k, etc. Holding too much heat in the cylinder heads = castastrophic failure. Historically, Honda engines lasted over 200k easily. These added emissions component really put a damper in that life span.
Any studies or evidence of "pre-mature engine failure"? Or are you just thinking out loud? Or are you just trolling?
Plus those "tree-hugging bastards" are the reason the air in southern California is cleaner than 20 years ago. You wanna pull the cats off your car, that's your business, but try not to talk out of your ass without posting some links to evidence supporting your claims (and insult people with different objectives in mind).
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:10 PM   #7
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Any studies or evidence of "pre-mature engine failure"? Or are you just thinking out loud? Or are you just trolling?
Plus those "tree-hugging bastards" are the reason the air in southern California is cleaner than 20 years ago. You wanna pull the cats off your car, that's your business, but try not to talk out of your ass without posting some links to evidence supporting your claims (and insult people with different objectives in mind).

Evidence? You bet I do. I work on more J-series engines than you think. You ask any mechanic, the logics of an engine and how they work efficiently. The cats are fine, but the design is poorly thought out putting it so close to the cylinder heads. Contact HOA, and ask them how many failed Cat's they have warrantied under 5yr/100k, also ask them how many oil consumption issues they've had with these newer designed engines versus the ones in the past. You think I'm trolling? I tear these engines down on a weekly basis and I do factory maintenance for alot of people in so cal.

How do you know the air in So Cal is cleaner than it was 20 years ago? You don't even live here.... Rediculous.

I'm not talking out of my ass. this is my job. I work on alot of performance J-series engines, and alot of regular Factory maintenance service for these engines. TL, CL, Accord, RL, MDX, Oddysey, you name it, i deal with it on the regular...

You think it was a good design to put the cats right off the cylinder heads? Get real buddy. you have idea who you're talking to and for your information, I still have a cat on my car. It's just in a much better location than it came originally from the factory.

The thread OP asked a question and I gave him a logical answer. A answer that I have foundation to state. I build these engines here in So Cal. I also service these engines daily for customers. I can't even count how many failed stock pre cat's I've encountered, and those parts aren't cheap. After the the pre-cats fail, guess what, oil consumption is a common thing that occurs after the fact... I've seen it with my own eyes, on numerous cars. Take what I stated as advice, otherwise don't come into the OP's thread to bad mouth me.

Op asked a question, I answered to the best of my mechanical knowledge. You want me to share information here? If not go somewhere else and don't come at me thinking you know stuff when you don't.

P.S: the internet is the internet, i will not base evidence off information someone else provided. So no, I will not provide a link because I do not use the internet as a source of information for myself to state here. I will however create a youtube video on the next failed Pre-cat just for your sake. I can also create a thread with a Poll: How many of your J-series engines burn oil. and How many of them have failed pre-cats.


on another note:
If you ever come to California one day, feel free to stop by and say hello. I'll show you what I do, and maybe than you will get a better idea of how I gather my information. Also we can go to the local track and do a few passes. N/A vs turbo.

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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:20 PM   #8
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What are the downsides to having pre-cat deletes?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #9
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What are the downsides to having pre-cat deletes?

depending on the state you live in and their regulations, you won't pass emissions.

It will smell like excess fuel out of the tail pipe also.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #10
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I live in NY and they do emissions testing here.

Would adding the pre-cat deletes, getting the J-Pipe, and adding a cat down the exhaust somewhere like you did be a safe bet? Is there an exact science to adding a cat somewhere else down the exhaust? And how would the sensors play into it?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 11:03 PM   #11
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I live in NY and they do emissions testing here.

Would adding the pre-cat deletes, getting the J-Pipe, and adding a cat down the exhaust somewhere like you did be a safe bet? Is there an exact science to adding a cat somewhere else down the exhaust? And how would the sensors play into it?

Yes it would free up the exhaust relieving EGT's. Rule of thumb on any engine to yield performance, the first thing one should do is get the exhaust gases out as fast as possible first.

The reason why I live by this is because it's pointless to take more air in on the intake side, if you can't relieve the gases on the exhaust side. Unfortunately with our newer engines, the head is casted with one port for 3 cylinders, than a cat which is very bad. high EGT, high engine temps, result in poor performance, especially during heavy spirited driving. The guys with the superchargers can tell you this right away. The ecu with have to adjust timing to accomodate for the excessive heat, often resulting in bad plugs, and even pre-detonation, and I've seen even stock, engine failure.

You're better off deleting the pre-cats, get richie's v3 J-pipe or better. and run a 2.5/2.75 inch exhaust all the way back.

I'm running a 3" cat right now, on my J35. I'm making over 330whp on pump gas. My goal by the end of the year is to make 375-400whp naturally aspirated on pump gas catted.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 04:17 AM   #12
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Yes it would free up the exhaust relieving EGT's. Rule of thumb on any engine to yield performance, the first thing one should do is get the exhaust gases out as fast as possible first.

The reason why I live by this is because it's pointless to take more air in on the intake side, if you can't relieve the gases on the exhaust side. Unfortunately with our newer engines, the head is casted with one port for 3 cylinders, than a cat which is very bad. high EGT, high engine temps, result in poor performance, especially during heavy spirited driving. The guys with the superchargers can tell you this right away. The ecu with have to adjust timing to accomodate for the excessive heat, often resulting in bad plugs, and even pre-detonation, and I've seen even stock, engine failure.

You're better off deleting the pre-cats, get richie's v3 J-pipe or better. and run a 2.5/2.75 inch exhaust all the way back.

I'm running a 3" cat right now, on my J35. I'm making over 330whp on pump gas. My goal by the end of the year is to make 375-400whp naturally aspirated on pump gas catted.
Thanks for the explanation. It looks like I've got to save up some money. Looks like its going to be around $800 for the precat deletes and V3 J-Pipe.

I'm assuming any other exhaust work will bring it over the $1000 range. I have a question though.... Would I just re-use one of the stock cats further down the exaust like around the rear sway bar area or something? Or would I have to get my hands on a different cat?
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Old August 15th, 2011, 06:15 AM   #13
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yo...

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Any studies or evidence of "pre-mature engine failure"? Or are you just thinking out loud? Or are you just trolling?
Plus those "tree-hugging bastards" are the reason the air in southern California is cleaner than 20 years ago. You wanna pull the cats off your car, that's your business, but try not to talk out of your ass without posting some links to evidence supporting your claims (and insult people with different objectives in mind).
I got 5 motors with pre-cat failure as DOA in my garage...(I used to have 8)
I can tell you the pre-cats are a huge FAILURE...


really Hondaman what exactly causes the pre-cats to fail is your fuel....
All of the fuel any consumer can buy is filled with detergents and fuel additives(minus race gas)....these chemicals run a different heat when combusted with fuel and air....the chemicals are then picked up the cat as unburned fuel (mainly as a hydrocarbon or a nitrogen oxide or carbon monoxide)and then the cat works on this...

The cats job is to take hydro carbons and make them carbon dioxide and water, also the cats make carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide,and lastly the cat takes the nitrogen oxide and makes it into nitrogen and oxygen....
The pre-cat loses over half of its life simply cleaning your exhaust from all the byproducts made combusting the fuel detergents and additives...the other reason they fail is their inability to shed HEAT....these 2 reasons coupled together is why the pre-cats fail as short as 6 months.
Better solution....a cat mounted further away from the cylinder head....why?
HEAT.....the location of the pre-cats does not allow the cylinder head to easily shed heat...once the exhaust gases flow away from the cylinder head and the cat is located further down the exhaust...the cat has a better ability to cool itself off and so does the cylinder head...you need this for both...this is why most pre-cats located right by the cylinder head generally fail...
the location of the 3rd cat is where everybody is generally putting a upgraded cat.

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Old August 15th, 2011, 07:32 AM   #14
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Are we losing power from this design? Meaning, if there were the traditional 3 ports off each head, I'm assuming we'd be able to scavenge better resulting in more power?
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Old August 15th, 2011, 09:21 AM   #15
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Evidence? You bet I do. I work on more J-series engines than you think. You ask any mechanic, the logics of an engine and how they work efficiently. The cats are fine, but the design is poorly thought out putting it so close to the cylinder heads. Contact HOA, and ask them how many failed Cat's they have warrantied under 5yr/100k, also ask them how many oil consumption issues they've had with these newer designed engines versus the ones in the past. You think I'm trolling? I tear these engines down on a weekly basis and I do factory maintenance for alot of people in so cal.

How do you know the air in So Cal is cleaner than it was 20 years ago? You don't even live here.... Reidiculous.

I'm not talking out of my ass. this is my job. I work on alot of performance J-series engines, and alot of regular Factory maintenance service for these engines. TL, CL, Accord, RL, MDX, Oddysey, you name it, i deal with it on the regular...

You think it was a good design to put the cats right off the cylinder heads? Get real buddy. you have idea who you're talking to and for your information, I still have a cat on my car. It's just in a much better location than it came originally from the factory.

The thread OP asked a question and I gave him a logical answer. A answer that I have foundation to state. I build these engines here in So Cal. I also service these engines daily for customers. I can't even count how many failed stock pre cat's I've encountered, and those parts aren't cheap. After the the pre-cats fail, guess what, oil consumption is a common thing that occurs after the fact... I've seen it with my own eyes, on numerous cars. Take what I stated as advice, otherwise don't come into the OP's thread to bad mouth me.

Op asked a question, I answered to the best of my mechanical knowledge. You want me to share information here? If not go somewhere else and don't come at me thinking you know stuff when you don't.

P.S: the internet is the internet, i will not base evidence off information someone else provided. So no, I will not provide a link because I do not use the internet as a source of information for myself to state here. I will however create a youtube video on the next failed Pre-cat just for your sake. I can also create a thread with a Poll: How many of your J-series engines burn oil. and How many of them have failed pre-cats.


on another note:
If you ever come to California one day, feel free to stop by and say hello. I'll show you what I do, and maybe than you will get a better idea of how I gather my information. Also we can go to the local track and do a few passes. N/A vs turbo.
Catalytic Converters: Creating Cleaner Air - Super Green Car

Catalytic Converter: How Does it Reduce Air Pollution? - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Key Events in the History or Air Quality in California
(read the line around 1980, 1995 and 2000, especially the part about lung function growth rate)

Funny how I can't find too much on catalytic converters and engine failure
Oh right, "I forgot who I was talking to". Maybe my career requires too much scientific evidence before I perform certain procedures, but logic doesn't always mean scientific truth.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 09:30 AM   #16
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Lol at this guy callin Nighthawk a troll... me thinks he doth troll a bit himself...
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Old August 15th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #17
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Lol at this guy callin Nighthawk a troll... me thinks he doth troll a bit himself...
Lol lol
I just don't see what the big deal is, I didn't see any insult from nhawk
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Old August 15th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #18
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Well I've got the v3 j-pipe,and magnaflow cat back. just debating on the pre cats now. The magnaflow cat back has a decent resonator so i don't think it will mess with sound as much, but i've never heard the pre cat deletes on. so just seeing how people have been liking the deletes and hfpc. i liked nighthawks explanation though. those pre cats are definitely why the engine warms up super fast in the morning.lol
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Old August 15th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by NCHondaman View Post
Catalytic Converters: Creating Cleaner Air - Super Green Car

Catalytic Converter: How Does it Reduce Air Pollution? - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Key Events in the History or Air Quality in California
(read the line around 1980, 1995 and 2000, especially the part about lung function growth rate)

Funny how I can't find too much on catalytic converters and engine failureOh right, "I forgot who I was talking to". Maybe my career requires too much scientific evidence before I perform certain procedures, but logic doesn't always mean scientific truth.

I"m not saying Catalytic convertors cause engine failure in general. I'm saying the design honda went with in regards to the latest J-series, with the cats bolted directly off the cylinder heads do by creating extremely high EGT's, and holding heat in the cylinder heads. Like any engine, when you make it choke by not allowing it to release its exhaust gases efficiently, you result in engine failure. What happens with these engines is when the cylinder heads get too hot, timing and fuel is adjusted by the ECU resulting into running rich and blowing the cats out Also the 02 sensors get fouled out quickly. That's why I recommend the deletes and the relocation. You're turbo charged, so why do you even jump into this thread to make a comment? You're cats aren't there anymore. My answer was for the OP. not for you. If you don't want to listen because I'm not an internet source thats good enough to you than don't. I could care less what you feel. Don't think you're some hot shot now cause your turbo charged.

Watch your slow POS automatic fail and you'll revert back to this forum and do a search to find that that's what happens, even with a stock car.. Plenty of members here have experienced. NO there is no Yahoo source I can point you to in regards to that. It's from experience that many members here have encounted, and it's an experience that I've dealt with with plenty of J-series automatics for customers. Same with the pre-Cats, and Oil consumption.

As far as the air being any cleaner, Everyone contributes to the air quality. Even you. The people in China, the people all over the world. The people cutting down the rain forest, the people burning coal, EVERYONE. The computer device your using, the car you drive, the gas you put in your car, everything. If you want to go hug a tree, do so, don't come around here acting like you're some hot shot that needs resources on the internet to be factual data. We went this route during industrialization. If you don't like it, go live in a cave.


I'm not a troll like you. I actually work on these cars regularly. I work on hondas from the 80's to now. Toyotas, Mistubishis, Subarus, Nissans... Mercedes you name it, I deal with it. I document most of the things I work on. Check my you tube.

You want some real factual data from a reputable shop, or you want one from the internet that some random guy can put up, that's your choice.

People here come to me for advice and questions. I answer them. You don't like it? Go somewhere else. You don't need to read any of my sh**
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Old September 11th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #20
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Anybody have pcds with magnaflow catback? How is the sound?
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Old September 12th, 2011, 01:33 AM   #21
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Ok i think this is what Nhwak is trying to prove. He's saying that its not so wrong to keep the cat, But it would have been better if it was located some where else. And from my knowledge, i think you guys are both right. Yeah i think maybe taking out the cat can make a better performance, But will cause the air in california to go bad. In the other hand, Having a Cat is not a bad thing and will make the air in california better. However, How would we know if it really did improve or not. Are you really going to believe what every scientist say? ok let say if you do believe them, then are you going to believe the world is going to end in 2012?? Did you believe the scientist when they said a HUGE asteroid will come and
destroy everything living creature in the earth? Scientist are always wrong, and they think they created everything. Anyways i am not trying to Fight with anyone, but just saying Both of you are right. You guys gave us a good opinion and its our choice to take it or not. BUT its stupid to judge or aim at others for their information/opinion. I like you guys both( no homo) lets keep this a family business and not do one of those going around " who's right who's wrong".
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:13 PM   #22
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OP was vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaotikPlaya View Post
Is anybody running richie's high flow pre cats? I'm wondering the major differences between the pre cat deletes and high flow pre cats, as far as power,smell,and sound differences. I know alot on the deletes just haven't heard much on the high flow pre cats
I haven't run PCD's yet, but I do run RV6 HFPCs. They didn't make much of a sound difference in my exhaust - just a very subtle hint of rasp. Nothing much at all. As far as smell, I don't ever smell it or notice it in daily driving (if I go WOT and blow by someone they will probably get a few more fumes than they're used to).

As far as power, I didn't dyno before & after....but apparently I wrote this in my original DA post regarding my 5AT J30:
Quote:
Originally Posted by invsblduck
I'm really happy with the results because there's zero lag when I press the gas pedal now. It doesn't "think" for a second and then downshift when I want to accelerate hard. It picks up and goes a lot easier. The low-end torque got a lot of help.
I'm now running the same HFPCs on a Smalser J36 with a 6MT (big up to ya Paul!), so I'm not sure what their fate will be in the long run...I'll probably just go PCDs within the next year.

As far as emissions.....well, I have to smog in a few months, so I'll let you know.

HTH,
Brett

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Old September 12th, 2011, 07:49 PM   #23
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I noticed one huge difference between the 6th gen (one cat far away) and the 7th gen V6. My 7th gen V6 engine runs hot and the the fans would come on way more often than my 6th gen. For those of us in the states that require emission test, I'm in Chicago, I have no choice but to keep the precats because that's where the O2 sensors are. It is an IMMEDIATE failure at the testing station if I were to remove the precats. I understand there are O2 sims, but that doesn't exempt the fact that they can smell the fume at testing facilities even if the ECU is fooled. So that leaves the question "is my engine going to go out due to faulty precats with chunks of platinum flying in the cylinder heads?" It's great to talk about "how" it should be done, but another to think that it "can't be avoided."
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Old September 16th, 2011, 02:22 PM   #24
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Well i figured there were so many more people running pcd's or hfpc, and i was trying to get more input on thoughts of them. rasp is my biggest worry. if you got em let's hear how you like them.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 05:28 PM   #25
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That's very interesting. I never would have thought this adversely affects the longevity of the engine.
In addition to the heat, the internals of the precats can break down and the particles get sucked back into the engine when you turn it off. Huge problem with the VQ25 engines and part of the oil burning issues in early VQ35s was partly because the precats come apart inside and end up scoring the cylinder walls. Then you have an engine that uses excessive oil which in turn slowly clogs the precats.

When I replaced the precats on the first Maxima I had, it was obvious they were coming apart, you could see where there was material missing. My 45-85 time dropped by nearly 3 seconds after putting in new cats. Thats how much clogging, deteriorating cats that close to the cylinder heads can cost you.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 05:34 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by t-rd View Post
I understand there are O2 sims, but that doesn't exempt the fact that they can smell the fume at testing facilities even if the ECU is fooled.
I can't imagine if you have deleted the precats but still have the main cat there would be any issues of gas fumes. The ONLY reason for the precats at all is for the first 90 seconds or so it takes for the main cat to get hot enough to work properly. After 90 seconds, the main cat alone is sufficient to cleanse the exhaust properly.

If O2 sims or spark plug non-foulers work to keep the light off, I'm all for dumping the precats. Dealt with the problem enough with my Maxima. Here you don't go to a government run emission place, most lube and tune places can do the testing. As far as they are concerned, if you don't have any codes, you pass. They don't look too much into you car if there are no codes. Main cat on the '02/03 Maximas isn't monitored, so I removed it. Precats were still there, no codes, easy pass.
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2004 Honda Accord EX V6. Mine is shinier than yours.

2004 Infiniti G35 6MT. Also super shiny.
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