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Old February 17th, 2015, 07:54 PM   #1
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Jerking/Bucking issues? please read...

Hi,

I'm curious on those who have those problems with their cars... Was the problem there before the flashpro/TL ecu installation? If you have those problems do you ALSO have rev hang or rev raise? For me, I have rev raise and bucking issues on my TL-S with ZDX TB or with stock TB. If we can collect different situations we should get together and ask hondata for help on this annoying problem
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Old February 17th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #2
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my cars engine is totally stock other than j pipe and exhaust and it bucks when pushing the gas and letting off.... any ideas? no mounts are broken and its the stock tb its very minor but annoying. it does it from 1-3 the worst.

car rev hangs when it drops to 3k after wide open pulls then drops to idle while not in gear after like 5 seconds.

my exhaust and j pipe are probably the problem now with the rev hangs tho the bucking happened before with stock exhaust and j pipe.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 10:30 PM   #3
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I had this with stock ECU and DTB IM. I then got flash pro and it freaked out (rev hang, surging, bucking). Before you tuned me (Dom) I was able to locate the injector cutoff setting and something else in Pro I had to play around with, hence asking you not to touch anything but time and fuel. I also cut some throttle out of my map up to 10% up to 2k rpm. My symptom are most likely way worse then any ZDX or single TB, but i hope this helps. If you search the "help" section in Pro, u will find thw settings im speaking of. Ill dive back into Pro to see if I can locate the issue.

There is also a thread about calibrating your TB through a Honda dealer. Some have said it fixed the "bucking" issue with the ZDX TB.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
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I had this with stock ECU and DTB IM. I then got flash pro and it freaked out (rev hang, surging, bucking). Before you tuned me (Dom) I was able to locate the injector cutoff setting and something else in Pro I had to play around with, hence asking you not to touch anything but time and fuel. I also cut some throttle out of my map up to 10% up to 2k rpm. My symptom are most likely way worse then any ZDX or single TB, but i hope this helps. If you search the "help" section in Pro, u will find thw settings im speaking of. Ill dive back into Pro to see if I can locate the issue.

There is also a thread about calibrating your TB through a Honda dealer. Some have said it fixed the "bucking" issue with the ZDX TB.
So even if you are using a dual TB system, is it fair to say that it's worst with the TL ECU than with the stock one? thanks for the reply btw we might get somewhere if we try to get together as a group and ask hondata for help once we have couple of similar situations.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 10:54 PM   #5
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Well with the TL ECU and flash pro it seemed like the ECU wouldn't learn $hit. I had to tell it what to do.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 11:01 PM   #6
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Setting were Injector overrun/restart/cut. Like I said, I also cut some throttle out, just a little
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Old February 17th, 2015, 11:16 PM   #7
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it cannot be fixed to drive like a normal car... it can be smoothen but not fixed, not with what is available in the flashpro for now...
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Old February 17th, 2015, 11:28 PM   #8
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When you say cut the throttle you mean something along the lines of the opposite of what sprint booster is?

So maybe the 3.5L ecu is the culprit. Could it just be that it's (even with hondata) miscalculating how much air can go through the engine?
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Old February 18th, 2015, 08:01 AM   #9
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I have horrible bucking (especially when the car is cold). I also have some rev hang, but it's much better than it was.

Dom! It's been so cold here I haven't done anything at all with FlashPro. Honestly, I haven't even plugged it into the car since I got a new battery. My car died with my old battery upon loading maps, and it's been so cold that even with the new battery I haven't tried uploading anything. I will get to it! Lol.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 08:05 AM   #10
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Its been stupid cold so the car has been buckling only when I am in 1st pre-warmer. It mostly when I let off the throttle after accelerating. Besides noticing is more recently the car drives fine. So the tune is working out great so far.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 08:56 AM   #11
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Either everyone is very sensitive when driving or I figured something out with my car

Overrun Fuel Cut Delay

overrun-delay


This is the delay between overrun conditions being met (throttle closed, rpm over about 1800 rpm) and the injectors shutting off. A long delay gives 'rev hang' effects. A short delay makes the vehicle jerky at light throttle. Note that for 6 speed vehicles often the table only has 5 columns, in which case the 5th gear setting is used for both 5th and 6th gears.

Throttle dampening

throttle-parameters


The standard ECU will slow the throttle opening when in first gear with the vehicle moving, which may result in a jerk once the throttle opens fully. This may be disabled.



Also Injector Cut and Restart will be where the car starts firing fuel after coasting (putting in Neutral or in gear). I had bad surging and found these setting were all jammed up. They are Temp. based, so if it's cold and you have RPM higher till it warms up, it may be a high idle the whole time.

Throttle Flow

In some situations the ECU will need to know the air flow past the throttle body for a certain throttle opening.

throttle-flow

This table only needs to be altered for larger than stock throttle bodies.


Injector Overrun Cutoff



The fuel injectors are shut off during overrun conditions (deceleration with the throttle closed).



throttle-overrun-rpm

The restart rpm determines at what engine speed the fuel injectors will restart operation. There are two tables to set a hysteresis - the injectors will be switched off when the engine speed is higher than the cut table, and switched on again when the engine speed is below the recover table.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 09:09 AM   #12
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Only issue is, what values do you put in for the Throttle Flow option? What are the parameters in there originally? Is that what the stock one flows? If so, perhaps we could use the % flow increase given by Acura on there announcement(s) page.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 09:13 AM   #13
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Is this a problem with the k series community as well ? With the j37 tb swaps. Also the zdx tb I bought used has a little bit a play back and forth in the butterfly before you truly open it. Is that Normal?
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Old February 18th, 2015, 09:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnick View Post
Only issue is, what values do you put in for the Throttle Flow option? What are the parameters in there originally? Is that what the stock one flows? If so, perhaps we could use the % flow increase given by Acura on there announcement(s) page.
I actually didn't touch the throttle flow. I adjusted the throttle plate % instead. As you said, I didn't know how to compensate for a value I knew nothing about.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 09:45 AM   #15
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I have absolutely no problems with my car. no buck no rev hang nothing. car runs flawless.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 10:03 AM   #16
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^ Care to elaborate?
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Old February 18th, 2015, 10:29 AM   #17
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^ It's built right I'm guessing all his mods support each other.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 10:31 AM   #18
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he started with a j35a8 + a j35a8 ecu.

no lego pieces like the rest of us.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 10:52 AM   #19
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^ F-ING A!! LOL

J30 Block, J37a1 heads, RL Cams, DTB IM, Fully ported, J32a3 ECU, Flash Pro

Flash Pro "Wait, wait, what do you want me to do again?"

My car runs perfect also, just had to dial her in. You guys will get a handle on it. This took me a full month of DD and calibrating to figure out (I am not a tuner).
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Old February 18th, 2015, 10:54 AM   #20
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^ I am with you

J30a5 block, j35a8 heads, 09 MDX camshaft, j32a3 ecu, flashpro, MDX 310cc injectors from 2011.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 11:21 AM   #21
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LOL, forgot about my 410 injectors.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 04:05 PM   #22
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I'm having rev hang slightly now. Is it possible you have a slight intake leak? Like it is damn near impossible to find the vacuum spot as you're trying drive slowly?

Also weren't there a few of you guys who had these problems fixed by doing the throttle body relearn process? What I got out of that was when you change the throttle body, the point where the ecu and the throttle body think the closed position is is two different spots. This causes the ecu to get more/less air than expected causing the rev/bucking.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 05:44 PM   #23
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Please remember that my thread is not about how to solve this problem because trust me I have tried everything... also tried plenty of different TPS voltage and TB recalibration with the HDS on stock TB and ZDX TB. What I try to do here is to get to a conclusion that the TL ecu is the cause and only hondata can do something about it to help us. And also see if jerking and rev hang goes together if yes this can give helpfull outputs to the hondata guys to help us on this...
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Old February 18th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #24
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Like I mentioned to you in some of our emails Dom, my rev49 vs the current rev52 in night and day when driving between 1st thru 3rd. A lot of bucking in rev49 with improvements (not 100%) in rev52. I don't notice a rev hang, but at the moment I'm still on stock mani and TB on the J36. I do agree with some of the guys, that the tl ecu/flashpro combo doesn't seem to be able to learn as much on it's own like the base accord ecu did. With my j30 only having im spacer, intake and exhaust, car felt great. I installed flashpro with tl ecu on the base cal and the car felt like I put it back to stock. It really never felt the same until you did the tune. So to finally answer you question, lol, yes, bucking seems to be the general consensus using the base tl ecu/flashpro. When the bucking bets bad, I put in the clutch��
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Old February 20th, 2015, 02:27 AM   #25
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So anyone willing to join the fight on the hondata forum? The more we are the best chance we have to get help...
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Old February 20th, 2015, 03:50 AM   #26
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Dom, not trying to piss all over your thread, but I don't think Hondata is to blame.....

We ALL screamed we wanted control over the ECU and we finally have it. I am sure many of you have heard the old axiom "Be careful what you wish for.", well. Rich, Hondata had to "dumb" down the ECU so that we can control everything otherwise we might as well stayed with the FIC as the ECU would then undo our tuning just like the issues we had with the ECU changing it's tuning to match the FICs changes. So we got what we wanted, now we have to learn all the ins and outs and gotchas. We wanted standalone control and with that comes standalone tuning headaches, especially when we Frankenstien the builds together combining all kinds of different and custom parts that now has to be figured out how to run them and of course find the little mechanical issues such as vacuum leaks and sensors out of spec.

Props to Accord325 for sticking with it and working thru the TB settings. Thank you for sharing your findings.

Dom, I have been hearing good things about your work, but I am a bit disappointed with your attitude towards Hondata. They simply gave us control over the ECU which means we now need to work thru these issues and find the correct settings for our Frankenbuilds. I do sometimes wish we could just turn off DBW all together and go back to cable which is fine for a dedicated track/show car, but most of us street and daily drive these cars so the loss of TCS/VSA and Cruise Control would be too much. So hopefully we can work together to find the necessary setting changes, tweaks and mechanical issues.

We got what we asked for, now we need to learn to work with the tools.
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Old February 20th, 2015, 12:42 PM   #27
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I never blame hondata! but I say thay only them can find a way to help us. The TL ecu is to blame. On the K series they had this problem before with rev hangs and some jerking... K series is the bread and butter of hondata and they have thousand of customer. So they spend time to get this fix. As for the J series we are not a lot using it and if we dont get together they will think it's an isolated issues and wont find a way to help us.
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Old February 20th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #28
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All great points and there is no clear cut solution. To one of your points Paul, we asked for Hondata support, now Dom along with most of us, is asking how can this "tool" be made better. If they can't or are unwilling for whatever reason, then so be it. We won't know unless we ask tho. And maybe it's just like Accord325 said, we just have to find the correct setting and spend the time tweaking but i for one would like to know if this our only solution or if hondata could possibly spend a few hours on a new rev to help. Of course it may not be that simply. Example, it took Dom about 7revs to smooth out my bucking on the j30 tune to get it as best as possibly which was great, but could it have been better, yes. Again, we may just be asking for perfection but who isn't
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Old February 20th, 2015, 02:40 PM   #29
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if you look here for the rev hang... ( many other examples can be found elsewere)

Do all si's have rev hang before flashpro? - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

The stock Si ecu has rev hang and it was fix by the flashpro in later revs they made... so this must be fixable by hondata for us too, but if only one person complains they wont find this to be an important issue right? But if we get more request on this issue from J series users we might have this fixed one day.

Version 1.7.0 was when the Kseries guys got rid of the rev hang

http://www.hondata.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16897



That guy was happy I hope we will be able to get those happy video someday...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TsIVwblNn0


This is my rev raise that I have in my car.

http://youtu.be/HbolSwrIk94

Last edited by DomGSR-T; February 20th, 2015 at 04:37 PM.. Reason: added info
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Old February 20th, 2015, 04:47 PM   #30
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1.) Accord325

I'm down to ask them for help, not to accuse of flaws (not saying u are)
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