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Old March 31st, 2004, 09:49 PM   #1
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Cam and manifold Swap

anyone here familiar with the Acura Type S Cams and manifolds and how compatible they are on the 7th gen V6?

insight appreciated.
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Old March 31st, 2004, 10:26 PM   #2
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the J30A4 cams actually have more lift than the J32A2 cams. Not sure about duration though. And the 7g intake manifold already seems to do a pretty darn good job. The CL-S variable IM might help at the low-end but you'd need a way to switch it between the two geometries which can be a PITA.

This is all good stuff to do for the 6g J30A1, but I think whatever gains you'd get by doing this stuff on the 7g (if anything) would be minimal and not worth the money by a long shot. The J30A4 is a more advanced engine in a lot of ways than the J32A2. It might be worthwhile to look into some stuff from the J30A3 engine (04+ TL though.

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Old April 1st, 2004, 12:19 AM   #3
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^ he ment the J32A3, not J30A3

And hes very correct. Going by lift numbers alone [all they publish] the J30A4 [and J35A4] cams are better then the type-S's. Also, the 6sp DOES have a variable manifold, just like the type-S.
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Old April 1st, 2004, 12:24 AM   #4
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SteVTEC..

Not sure if anyone asked before.. since we're already in this topic, might as well ask away..

the 6speed have different intake manifold which is suppose to be more efficient.. taking the engine are the same.. can AV6 do a swap?
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Old April 1st, 2004, 06:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by brex on April 1st, 2004 at 02:24 AM

the 6speed have different intake manifold which is suppose to be more efficient.. taking the engine are the same.. can AV6 do a swap?
Yes the 6 speed manifold will fit but you would need the 6 speed ECU to make the butterfly valve work.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on April 1st, 2004 at 12:26 AM

It might be worthwhile to look into some stuff from the J30A3 engine (04+ TL though.

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From www.Hondanews.com

Quote:
The 2004 TL's 3.2-liter, 24-valve, all-aluminum VTEC engine utilizes an 11.0:1 compression ratio, a two-stage intake manifold and a cold air intake to help generate 270 horsepower at 6,200 rpm and 238 lbs-ft of torque at 5,000 rpm (up from 225 hp and 216 lbs-ft

for the '03 TL and 260 hp and 232 lbs-ft of torque on the '03 TL Type-S). A retooled exhaust system that includes two close-coupled primary catalytic converters for quicker light off and a secondary underfloor catalytic converter helps to generate extra horsepower while improving emissions from ULEV to ULEV-2 standards. Despite the added horsepower, EPA fuel mileage ratings are 20 mpg city/28 mpg highway for models equipped with an automatic transmission and 20 mpg city/30 mpg highway for models equipped with a manual transmission.

In addition to the new powerplant, the 2004 TL features a drive-by-wire throttle system, which eliminates the need for a mechanical connection between the accelerator pedal and the engine. Evolved from the drive-by-wire system in the NSX supercar, this system is custom tailored to match the unique performance characteristics of the TL. It provides responsive acceleration, modulates the throttle during automatic transmission shifts for improved smoothness and allows throttle control to be incorporated into the TL's new Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) logic.
Sounds like it's just a retooled J32A2.

2004 TL cams Part# 319373 FR (1), 319371 RR (2)


2004 Accord V6 cams Part# 1092811 FR (1), 1092804 RR (2)


The TL cams are the same length as the J30A4 (2004 AV6) cams. And we know the J30A4 cams can't fit on the J30A1 (at this point) so it looks to be the same with the 2004 TL cams .



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Old April 3rd, 2004, 07:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plumaccordcoupe
And we know the J30A4 cams can't fit on the J30A1 (at this point)
We do? Why not?
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Old April 3rd, 2004, 09:01 PM   #7
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something about the J30A4 cams being longer. Odd. I don't know the details though.
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Old April 26th, 2004, 08:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plumaccordcoupe
[B]Yes the 6 speed manifold will fit but you would need the 6 speed ECU to make the butterfly valve work.


You won't be able to use the 6mt ECU since it won't have the required program to shift the auto transmission. You'd have to wire the butterflies up to something like a shift light so you can set the opening to whatever RPM's you need.
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Old April 27th, 2004, 12:00 AM   #9
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seeing as the 2003+accords and 2003+ MDX's use the same cam, I bet the 04 TL uses it too
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Old June 1st, 2004, 10:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by KaiserSoze on April 26th, 2004 at 10:42 PM

You won't be able to use the 6mt ECU since it won't have the required program to shift the auto transmission. You'd have to wire the butterflies up to something like a shift light so you can set the opening to whatever RPM's you need.
Yeah, I know that . I was just saying that you would need the ECU to make the butterfly valve work. I didn't say that a 6 speed AV6 ECU swap to an automatic AV6 was actually possible .



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Old June 1st, 2004, 11:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on April 1st, 2004 at 12:26 AM

the J30A4 cams actually have more lift than the J32A2 cams. Not sure about duration though.
From pics I have seen I think they have less duration.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on April 1st, 2004 at 12:26 AM
The CL-S variable IM might help at the low-end but you'd need a way to switch it between the two geometries which can be a PITA.
The Type S intake manifold isn't directly controlled by the PCM (ECU) like the Accord 6spds. It might be be posible to use the Type S IMRC unit and a VTEC controller to handle the newer intake manifolds. I'm sure it would work on the older ones.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC on April 3rd, 2004 at 11:01 PM

something about the J30A4 cams being longer. Odd. I don't know the details though.
Nope, shorter.... details here.

Quote:
Originally posted by bored&stroked on April 27th, 2004 at 01:00 AM

seeing as the 2003+accords and 2003+ MDX's use the same cam, I bet the 04 TL uses it too
A little backwards... part numbers are below.

2003-? Accord V6, 2004-? 3.2TL
14100-RCA-A00 FR CAMSHAFT
14200-RCA-A00 RR CAMSHAFT

2003+ MDX
14100-RCA-A10 FR CAMSHAFT
14200-RCA-A10 RR CAMSHAFT

More cam info.
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Old June 2nd, 2004, 03:43 AM   #12
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some question on variable IM..

1. what sort of the gain can we hope for using variable IM? from either mt6 or cl-s?
2. how does a simple shift light make variable IM works?

Last edited by brex; June 2nd, 2004 at 03:48 AM..
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Old June 5th, 2004, 06:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by brex
some question on variable IM..

1. what sort of the gain can we hope for using variable IM? from either mt6 or cl-s?
2. how does a simple shift light make variable IM works?
Shift lights have different "pills" that you install in them to set the rpm the light is actuated. if you ran a wire from the light to the butterfly valve solenoid, theoretically, it would be possible to control the rpm at which they open by simply switching the "pill".
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Old June 8th, 2004, 10:48 AM   #14
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on a 2000 accord v6 i was wonderin if they have dohc or sohc, the manual says single but on the parts review on cams it says i need two camshafts. sorry it may seem like a dumb question.
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Old June 8th, 2004, 06:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinoy_accord
on a 2000 accord v6 i was wonderin if they have dohc or sohc, the manual says single but on the parts review on cams it says i need two camshafts. sorry it may seem like a dumb question.
It's a sohc. You need two cams because there are 3 cylinders on each side of the "V". You need a cam for side. If it were dohc you would need 4 cams. I hope that helps
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Old June 9th, 2004, 11:21 AM   #16
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oh i get it now i had inline motors in my ming like 4 cylinders and inline 6's. thanks man
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Old December 14th, 2004, 05:14 PM   #17
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i am bringing this thread back to life. if u dont have the butterfly valve operating correctly on the type s manifold will u lose power?
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Old December 14th, 2004, 07:45 PM   #18
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if it's stuck in the low-RPM profile you'll have crappy top-end power.
if it's stuck in the high-RPM profile you'll have crappy low-end power.

So yes, you'll lose power. It's just a question of where you lose it.
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Old December 14th, 2004, 07:57 PM   #19
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thanks steve , it is funny because i know a few gsr guys remove there butterfly valve , they say when u do it , it produces gains but nobody explains to me how . i dont see the reasoning behind it , i guees i cant even begin to compare a b series and j series anyway
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Old December 14th, 2004, 09:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eolife22
thanks steve , it is funny because i know a few gsr guys remove there butterfly valve , they say when u do it , it produces gains but nobody explains to me how . i dont see the reasoning behind it , i guees i cant even begin to compare a b series and j series anyway
This might help (from Hondanews.com): http://www.hondanews.com/CatID3072?m...asc&archives=t

Quote:
DUAL-STAGE INDUCTION SYSTEM
Fitted exclusively on the Type S model, this revolutionary induction system is the heart of the class-leading 260 horsepower engine. This system uses a large, two-chamber intake plenum separated by a valve, which opens at 3800 and is actuated by a separate electric motor.

During this valve's closed-stage at low to mid engine speed operation, a Resonance Charge condition exists when pressure pulsations between cylinders assist the adjoining cylinder for each bank. In doing so, air filling the cylinders increases with the resonance energy (Helmholz principle).

When this valve opens during mid to high engine speed operation, an Inertial Charge condition is achieved and increased air filling occurs when the manifold volume (plenum) is increased and the resonance condition is eliminated. This phenomenon utilizes the high flow mass to pressurize the manifold port air, producing a natural "supercharger" effect.

This increased airflow and air filling is the fundamental reason for the efficient combustion and subsequent power. Additional improvements were made to reduce air intake restriction and increase total air flow volume through a larger 64mm bore throttle body, along with a low restriction, overall air induction network, including a free flow air filter and air flow tube.


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Old December 14th, 2004, 10:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eolife22
thanks steve , it is funny because i know a few gsr guys remove there butterfly valve , they say when u do it , it produces gains but nobody explains to me how . i dont see the reasoning behind it , i guees i cant even begin to compare a b series and j series anyway
it depends on how the manifold is setup. -=socalv6=- posted a dyno of his CL-S manifold swapped J30A1 once with the manifold locked in low RPM mode and the top-end drop off was huge after it missed the 3800 rpm switchover. So my comment was specifically for the CL-S manifold.

I've heard of SVT Contour guys removing the butterfly valve also. It in theory can reduce the turbulence going around it, or allow both passages to be opened at once (true dual runner) which could help with top-end. You obviously tradeoff low-end though, and possibly mileage and emissions. Poor tumble and intake port velocity at low revs = poorer combustion efficiency and therefore power and mileage also.
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Old December 14th, 2004, 11:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC
it depends on how the manifold is setup. -=socalv6=- posted a dyno of his CL-S manifold swapped J30A1 once with the manifold locked in low RPM mode and the top-end drop off was huge after it missed the 3800 rpm switchover. So my comment was specifically for the CL-S manifold.

I've heard of SVT Contour guys removing the butterfly valve also. It in theory can reduce the turbulence going around it, or allow both passages to be opened at once (true dual runner) which could help with top-end. You obviously tradeoff low-end though, and possibly mileage and emissions. Poor tumble and intake port velocity at low revs = poorer combustion efficiency and therefore power and mileage also.

This seems to be an awful lot of trouble for very small gains... If you wanted something relatively easy in the intake department, why not just remove the manifold and port match it to the gaskets/heads, and then extrude hone it. Much much more potential gain, and a whole lot easier/less expensive.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 05:13 AM   #23
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You're kidding right? Remove manifold and remove butterfly valve (free) vs port matching and extrude honing (not free).
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Old December 15th, 2004, 07:07 PM   #24
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Despite my quoted message looking to the contrary, I was actually referring to the ECU changing/modifying and cam swapping more than just the butterfly removal.

However, the port/gasket matching should not have any asociated cost to it other than the tools and a new gasket. I assume you have to remove the intake to get to the butterfly valve anyway, so this shouldn't prove much more difficult.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 08:19 PM   #25
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well i was thinking about getting another stock i ntake manifold and getting that extruded and honed . i cant find the thread but i think someone said that only upper manifold would need work done to it , is this correct ? i wish the av6 had simpler solution like the maxima with its mevi , o well
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Old December 15th, 2004, 09:16 PM   #26
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The MEVI on the Maxima still requires rigging up a vaccum source and an RPM switch, just like the CL-S manifold on an Accord. Getting that to work, and reliably, is always the most difficult part.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 09:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorePower4me
Despite my quoted message looking to the contrary, I was actually referring to the ECU changing/modifying and cam swapping more than just the butterfly removal.

However, the port/gasket matching should not have any asociated cost to it other than the tools and a new gasket. I assume you have to remove the intake to get to the butterfly valve anyway, so this shouldn't prove much more difficult.
Most people aren't going to have the tools or skills to accomplish that in their garage. And yes, on dinky little 3.0's like these, you're talking about wimpy gains.

And these aren't domestics either. There's still little to no aftermarket support for "real" mods.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 09:33 PM   #28
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Your telling me! We'll get there one of these days though.
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Old December 15th, 2004, 10:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC
Most people aren't going to have the tools or skills to accomplish that in their garage. And yes, on dinky little 3.0's like these, you're talking about wimpy gains.

And these aren't domestics either. There's still little to no aftermarket support for "real" mods.
steve when u day wimpy gains u mean untuned ? i think if u combine this mod with cl type s cams and tuning you should get descent gains . yeah domestics have so much aftermarket support , this i s tru , the money u spend just to get ur accord running 14s will have a domestic running 12 or even high 11s
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Old December 16th, 2004, 05:56 AM   #30
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Pull the top of the intake manifold off and look at the tight very square holes for the air to flow into. I would like to pull my intake manifold and have those holes port and polished. I am not sure what kind of gains there would be, but I would think the ability to run a slightly higher volume of air, over a smoother surface would have some benefit. Thoughts??
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