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Old April 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM   #1
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Anyone have 1/4 times before/after getting bigger rims?

I'm thinking of getting 18" on my v6 auto coupe but eveyone is saying the car would get noticably slower, I dont want that as its slow off the line as it is.

does anyone have any idea what the chage really is?
thanks!!
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Old April 29th, 2004, 03:23 PM   #2
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Not sure if I can help you out, but before my wheels and exhaust, I ran a 14.8. But now I can run a 14.4. Probably not much of a difference since I had 17's before my 18's.
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Old April 30th, 2004, 08:41 AM   #3
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They won't slow you down enough to notice really. I went from my stock 16's to 18's and now I have 17's. I ran at the track with all 3 wheel setups and they were within .1 and 1mph of eachother. I acheived the fastest time with my 17's.
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Old May 1st, 2004, 05:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by hondav6
They won't slow you down enough to notice really. I went from my stock 16's to 18's and now I have 17's. I ran at the track with all 3 wheel setups and they were within .1 and 1mph of eachother. I acheived the fastest time with my 17's.
And given that you're at very high altitude, that may have slowed you down enough to the point where you wouldn't have seen much of a difference in the first place.

At sea level, you could easily see 0.3s and 2-3 mph difference (slower) from stock 16's vs heavier 18's. It absolutely will slow you down, especially off the line where acceleration is the highest, along with the moment of inertial resistance from the wheels/tires which is a function of acceleration.
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Old May 3rd, 2004, 01:22 PM   #5
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Only way to really know is do switch it up at the track on the same day and same temp/humidity. Is that what you did hondav6?
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Old May 4th, 2004, 11:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC

At sea level, you could easily see 0.3s and 2-3 mph difference (slower) from stock 16's vs heavier 18's. It absolutely will slow you down, especially off the line where acceleration is the highest, along with the moment of inertial resistance from the wheels/tires which is a function of acceleration.
...stop the madness.

Fine:

its not size that matters, its the weight. Be wise and dont buy "heavier 18's". Make sure the 18's are lighter (not the same) as the wheels they replace and you :should: be even.

And hondav6, .1sec is plenty of difference in the bragging world. 14.5 vs. 14.4? YES, if your buddy beats your time by .1s, hell rub your face all in it.
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Last edited by rpgonzalez; May 4th, 2004 at 12:07 PM..
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Old May 4th, 2004, 12:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
...stop the madness.

Fine:

its not size that matters, its the weight. Be wise and dont buy "heavier 18's". Make sure the 18's are lighter (not the same) as the wheels they replace and you :should: be even.


No, it's the size too. I=mr^2 x A

And on top of that, the shorter and much stiffer sidewall on low profile tires for 18's make it much more difficult to control your launch which can make good ET's even more difficult to get.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 12:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC


No, it's the size too. I=mr^2 x A
...dont roll your eyes. Weve been through this. Youre being condescending with no real evidence to back your ideas up. Are all phenomena explained using classic Newtonian physics.... ? Your formula looks great and Id be inclined to back you up if you didnt give me the rolleyes first. Ive provided articles and my own conjecture, plus back up from physics gurus. The ONLY conclusion is that this "science" (and I KNOW youre an EE) from EVERYONE including me is nothing but hypothesis with NO data at all, making "common sense" conclusions null. The author wants DATA. He asked for numbers, not more of the same blah blah blah.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteVTEC

And on top of that, the shorter and much stiffer sidewall on low profile tires for 18's make it much more difficult to control your launch which can make good ET's even more difficult to get.
honest question: does this account for the idea that the 18's should be wider with more contact patch?


:gets out flame suit:
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Old May 4th, 2004, 01:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
...dont roll your eyes. Weve been through this. Youre being condescending with no real evidence to back your ideas up.


I've provided links to discussions on other sites where they DID have REAL DATA, so don't say I've never backed anything up. On other otherhand, you backed out of the previous discussion saying you didn't have time.

Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
Are all phenomena explained using classic Newtonian physics.... ? Your formula looks great and Id be inclined to back you up if you didnt give me the rolleyes first. Ive provided articles and my own conjecture, plus back up from physics gurus. The ONLY conclusion is that this "science" (and I KNOW youre an EE) from EVERYONE including me is nothing but hypothesis with NO data at all, making "common sense" conclusions null.


See previous thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
The author wants DATA. He asked for numbers, not more of the same blah blah blah.
Then he can search for the previous thread where the DATA that I provided was backed up. There is plenty of DATA out there beyond just this site alone as well. There are lots of great write-ups from other technical gurus floating on the net. There are even books written about things like this.



Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
honest question: does this account for the idea that the 18's should be wider with more contact patch?


:gets out flame suit:
yup
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Old May 4th, 2004, 01:28 PM   #10
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I'll have to stand on Steve's side on this one. Although lighter rims will definitely help, and you would get better handling characteristics with bigger/lighter combo but your acceleration will still hurt with the bigger diameter unless new rims are much ligter than stock which is rarely the case.
There has been numerous discusions about this same topic on many boards and in general the conclusion was - bigger rims slow you down.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 01:35 PM   #11
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I can't seem to find the previous thread where all of this was discussed in great depth.

BUT...consider that hardcore drag racers use tiny little 14 or 15" wheels and tires with big floppy sidewalls. There's a reason for that. 1) the small wheel has a lower moment of inertia. 2) the larger and more flexible sidewalls act as a sort of spring and make delivering tons of off the line torque much more controllable and consistent. Not many drag racers use huge rims with low profile rubber. That's an autocross/handling type of setup.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
Are all phenomena explained using classic Newtonian physics.... ?
well, technically, this debate is much easier resolved using lagrangian mechanics...

and without a doubt, we could prove that. but i enjoy people arguing when they are wrong.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:32 PM   #13
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WHOA! I did not accuse you of never backing anything up. I agree that you back things up. One of my points was that the author wanted data and evidence in this thread. If the whole problem was that he needed to do a search then he could have gotten ALL of our opinions by doing a search.

You called BS twice, but I still cannot say that I have ever seen 1/4 mile times with size combos independent of weight variation. You kept referring to the MAxima thread. We dont know the weights of those rims....maybe they were the same, maybe they werent. But nothing is fact until we KNOW. Like the AEM v2 debate!

And yes I backed out. The arguments from that thread were getting circular so I backed out and used time as an excuse. Sorry.


Quote:
from i3igpete:
well, technically, this debate is much easier resolved using lagrangian mechanics...
yes, not newtonian.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:34 PM   #14
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but i enjoy people arguing when they are wrong.
hmmmm. how incredibly arrogant of you
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Old May 4th, 2004, 02:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
hmmmm. how incredibly arrogant of you
well, when you are talking cars, there are always people who always argue their points and never listen to reason. these people are ones that are fun to listen to...
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Old May 4th, 2004, 03:36 PM   #16
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I will obviously concede to anyone who shows me what the author of this thread is asking for. I have never seen data rigorous enough. Im sure you are right, Steve, as I have said the same stuff on other forums. But I have heard counter points to this argument, which means to me that the issue is not resolved. I want the day where we can post some numbers and nobody can say a word. This has been my only gripe and source of stubborness. Im not trying to prove that size is irrelevant, Im trying to prove that its POSSIBLE that size is negligible when weight is constant.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 06:05 PM   #17
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How bout this guys. You go online outside of V6P and pull all your data and compare FACTS.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 09:31 PM   #18
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hello rotational mass... the farther out from the axis of the tire you go the more work it is to spin that mass.

physics has proven that... why should we have to again?

if you have equal weight rims in 16 and 17 inches, the 17 inches is still harder to turn because the weight is farther away from the center

That's why steve bolded the r^2 (r stands for radius)
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Old May 4th, 2004, 09:42 PM   #19
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I know that. Some people still aren't convinced.
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Old May 4th, 2004, 09:42 PM   #20
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dude, have you read any of this thread, or any of the other numerous thread about this?

we *KNOW* that it makes a difference. what we need is some emperical data that we can compare and analyze.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 12:05 AM   #21
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relentless, WOW!

Coming from an owner of a Sapphire Blue accord, I can't get over how good your car looks with those rims + drop!! Those are by far the nicest rims I've seen yet on the accord.

How much did you get them for?
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Old May 5th, 2004, 07:12 AM   #22
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Speak of the devil. Someone go read the latest Motor Trend.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 09:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doom
Only way to really know is do switch it up at the track on the same day and same temp/humidity. Is that what you did hondav6?
Yes that is exactly what I did. I have ran with 16's, 17's and 18's.

I ran here in Tucson at SIR which is at 3075ft and crappy cond.
(42LBS Stock 16's) - [email protected]
(48LBS TSX 17's) - [email protected] <-----Fastest time!
(55LBS 18's) - [email protected]

Weather and Sea Level Correction for Elevation is around [email protected] for my fastest time. High Elevation and warm temps suck! I would rather run at sea level then to use that stupid correction factor.

Maybe at sea level the difference would be more noticable but 55lbs is always 55lbs and that doesn't change with elevation.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 10:14 AM   #24
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So what were the 60' times for each run? And since you're running at high elevation, the inertial effects of heavy rims would be less than at sea-level since you're not accelerating as hard. And how many times did you run on each wheel/tire setup? Just once or did you make say 3 passes each?
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Old May 5th, 2004, 10:44 AM   #25
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Originally posted by hondav6

(42LBS Stock 16's) - [email protected]
(48LBS TSX 17's) - [email protected] <-----Fastest time!
(55LBS 18's) - [email protected]

The only criticism I have is that these numbers are statistically insignificant. There is no correlation given that the 16's produced numbers in between 17's and 18's. AND, what steve said.

All I need are 3 sets of wheels the same weight, a compressor and air ratchet, a g-tech, a floor jack, open road and about 75 runs. Anyhone have a $5k grant to give me?!?!
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Old May 5th, 2004, 12:24 PM   #26
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Good point guys. Maybe he got a better launch with the 17s that one time versus the 16s.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 01:17 PM   #27
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I'm going to the track soon, so I'll see what my results are also.

But...I have 2 questions...1-How can you find out what the elevation of the track is?! 2-How do you correct your times to reflect perfect elevation, or whatever?!
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Old May 5th, 2004, 03:09 PM   #28
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Good point guys. Maybe he got a better launch with the 17s that one time versus the 16s.
absolutely....

....check this article too.

http://www.grmotorsports.com/plustest.html

It does not resolve 1/4 mile desputes, but does shed light on autoX and bigger rims. They have some pretty interesting data at the bottom. They concluded that benefits of traction from less sidewall outweighs mass differences. But again, for autoX.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 04:13 PM   #29
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While this has turned into a technical debate, I need to vent on something that drives me nuts.


FASTEST TIME

I always see "fastest time" or "fastest auto" when refering to 1/4 mile times. "Fast" is a relative term relating to speed. It's "quickest time" people.
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Old May 5th, 2004, 09:52 PM   #30
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