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Old July 12th, 2005, 06:57 PM   #1
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ground wire system

how many HP they give?? or they only for style??
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Old July 12th, 2005, 07:32 PM   #2
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I think it depends on the brand but they do many things, such as improve the car's electrical layout so as to give more power, more fuel efficiency, improve radio power, less of a power loss when the A/C is on, etc...
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Old July 12th, 2005, 07:43 PM   #3
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I noticed 2 things. 1. Smoother idle, its probably in my head though. 2. Better power when AC is on, that is IMO, definately noticable. No power increase.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingof3rdinput
I noticed 2 things. 1. Smoother idle, its probably in my head though. 2. Better power when AC is on, that is IMO, definately noticable. No power increase.
spot on, thats exactly what grounding wires should do for you.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:18 PM   #5
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I have a friend who is a Honda tech and he feels that Honda grounding is minimal at best. He thinks that all of the electrical components will, to some degree, improve in their functionality with a ground kit. From what I have read here and other sites improved grounding will benefit our cars. Thus I hve installed the V6P ground kit.
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Old July 12th, 2005, 09:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odk
I have a friend who is a Honda tech and he feels that Honda grounding is minimal at best. He thinks that all of the electrical components will, to some degree, improve in their functionality with a ground kit. From what I have read here and other sites improved grounding will benefit our cars. Thus I hve installed the V6P ground kit.
just out of curiousity, what comes in the kit? and how much did it set u back inc tax/s&h?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:54 PM   #7
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I paid $150 shipped from v6p, its overpriced, but it's not "ebay reliability". It comes with custom length 8 guage wires. Very nice terminals, and also Custom mounting hardware. Very sharp kit.
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Old July 13th, 2005, 05:59 PM   #8
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anybody here install MSD with groun wire kit?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:02 PM   #9
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Also, anybody here using the Hyper ground system or the HKS circle earth ground system?
And can the V6P ground wire kit be used on our inline 4s?
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Old July 13th, 2005, 09:45 PM   #10
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I've read here that the circle systems works just fine. Yes the V6P kit can be used on i4's.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 02:45 AM   #11
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why pay so much for wires? copper is copper, the small level of impurities wont make a difference with grounds. its also not hard to crimp/solder your own terminals. maybe someone can explain this to me
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Old July 14th, 2005, 05:13 PM   #12
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You are correct. The reason I bucked up, Is 1. Dont have to worry about measuring and reserching for a whole day. 2. The terminals, and connectors are very pretty. 3. The convenience of not making this thing myself was worth it alone. If you have the resources and time, go for it. But do note, you have to replace some bolts which could throw a wrench in the works figuring that out.
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Old July 14th, 2005, 05:30 PM   #13
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The kit is 135 shipped, not that big of a price drop but a drop non the less. We are still working on trying to get these kits out cheaper but because of the price of the parts we use and that we have to put these all together by hand make it a bit more expensive. And the wire is a 4 gauge not an 8 gauge as someone else stated.

As for increase in hp one of our members actually went and did a dyno because he wanted to see if there where any gains.

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/...round+kit+dyno
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Old July 14th, 2005, 08:37 PM   #14
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wow, thank you gme2001. link and pictures are just worth so much more than chitchat!

you guys are right, they sure are pretty! still not sure if id dump 100+ for wires though 4awg definitely is expensive stuff though, and its PRETTY too! big ups for a clean kit
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Old July 14th, 2005, 10:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by gme2001
And the wire is a 4 gauge not an 8 gauge as someone else stated.
sry bout that. thought i remembered 8
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Old July 14th, 2005, 10:25 PM   #16
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Post Grounding 101

FYI . . .

Quote:
Why GROUNDING is used?

Terminology

In Britain, people have 'earth' and in Northern America they have 'ground'. They are exactly the same thing, only different terms are used in different countries.


Purposes of Grounding

Grounding system has three main purposes:

Overvoltage protection

Lightning, line surges or unintentional contact with higher voltage lines can cause dangerously high voltages to the electrical distribution system wires. Grounding provides an alternative path around the electrical system of your home, CAR or workplace minimizes damage from such occurances.


Voltage stabilization
There are many sources of electricity. Every transformer can be considered a separate source. If there were not a common reference point for all these voltage sources it would be extremely difficult to calculate their relationships to each other. The earth is the most omnipresent conductive surface, and so it was adopted in the very beginnings of electrical deistirution systems as a nearly universal standard for all electric systems.

Current path in order to facilitate the operation of overcurrent devices
This purpose of grounding is the most important one to understand. Grounding system provides certain level of safety to humans and property in case of equipment damages.


Grounding operation in electrical distribution network
The main reason why grounding is used in electrical distribution network is the safety: when all metallic parts in electrical equipments are grounded then if the insulation inside the equipments fails there are no dangerous voltages present in the equipment case. Then the live wire touches the grounded case then the circuit is effectively shorted and fuse will immediatly blow. When the fuse is blown then the dangerous voltages are away.

The safety is the primary function of grounding. Grounding systems are designed so that they do provide the necessary safety functions. Grounding also have other functions in some applications but the safety should not be compromised in any case. Grounding is quite often used to provide common ground reference potential for all equipments but the existing building grounding systems might not provide good enough ground potential for all equipments which might lead to ground potential difference and ground loop problems which are common problems in computer networks and audio/video systems.


How electric shock happens
The "hot" wire is at 120 volts or 230 volts (depends on the mains voltage used in your country) and the other wire is neutral or ground. If a person were to touch the neutral wire only, no shock would result simply because there is no voltage on it. If he were to touch the hot wire only, again nothing would happen to him unless some other part of his body were to become grounded. A person is considered to be grounded if he comes in contact with a water pipe, metal conduit, the neutral or ground wire, or stands barefoot on a concrete floor.

In other words, neither wire is a shock hazard unless a person is grounded, and then only the hot is a potential shock hazard. Of course, if a person were to touch both wires at the same time, he would be shocked simply because his body is completing connection between "hot" and "ground" wires.


Metal case safety
Back in the early days, equipment and appliances fitted with the two wire power plug were readily accepted to be safe from shock hazard because the metal housing was not connected to either wire of the line cord (called floating case).

One of the problems with appliances and equipment which have a "floating metal case" is that a shock hazard exists if the case comes into contact with the hot wire. This so called "fault condition" may happen in many ways with some of the more common causes being a "pinched" line cord, failure of installation systems, or movement of components due to shock or vibration which will cause the "hot wire" terminal to touch the case.

Naturally, if for any reason the case does become "live,"then a person touching it may be shocked if he is grounded. If this "hot chassis" is connected to another chassis or instrument by a typical shielded cord, then that chassis or instrument will become hot also. The entire purpose of the present three wire system is to provide a separate ground path which will effectively eliminate any possibility of shock.

If the live wire touches the grounde metal case the ground connection in the case causes that the situation becomes a showrt circuit as drawn in picture below.

This short circuit situation causes very high current surge to flow in the circuit which will cause the distribution panel fuse to blow almost immediatly. The cureent in short circuit situation can be pretty high because of the low resistance of the mains distribution wiring.

The integrity of the separate ground path is directly related to the quality of the chassis/green wire/ground pin combination. When the ground pin is removed, the separate ground path is destroyed and then fault conditions may cause shock hazards.

Grounding and interference susceptibility
Whenever audio equipment is operated without a ground (floating chassis), strange things can happen. Under certain conditions the amplifier will be more susceptible to radio frequency interference (picking up radio stations or CB. radio). Also, without a suitable ground, amplifiers sometimes "hum" more when the musician picks up his instrument and provides a "pseudo" ground through himself.

The only solution is to find a ground point to connect to the chassis. Sometimes this may just cause more problems than it helps.


Grounding in wiring
Today's modern (US.) mains cable consists of three separate wires: black, white, and green. The green wire is always connected to the large ground pin on the plug, and the other (green) end connected to the chassis of the equipment. The black wire is always considered to be the "hot wire," and as such, is always the leg which is connected to the switch and fuse. The white wire is always the neutral or common wire.

European coloring is a little bit different. The ground wire is here green wire with yellow stripe. Neutral wire is blue. Live wire in Brown (additional colors for the live wires used in 3 phase systems are black and black with white stripe).

Any modification of the above 3 wire mains system completely eliminates the protection given by the three wire configuration. The integrity of the separate ground path is also directly related to the quality of the receptacle and the wiring system in the building itself.

The neutral (grounded conductor) must be solidly connected (bonded) to the home's ground system at the first disconnect (main panel). This keeps large voltage differences from developing between the neutral and ground.

Currents in grounding wire
Ground wires should not carry current except during faults. If the ground wire carries any current there will be a potential difference between different grounding points (bacause the current flowing in wire causes voltage drop because wire resistance). This is why a common wire which works as neutral and grounding wire is very bad thing.

When there is separate wiring for grounding you can't still completely avoid the current flowing in grounding wires ! There will always be some capacitive leakage current form the live wire to the ground wire. This capacitive leakage current is caused by the fact that the wiring, transformers and interference filters all have some capacitance between the ground and live wire. The amount of current is limited to be quite low (limited to be between 0.6 mA to 10 mA depending on equipment type) so it does not cause dangers and big problems. Because of this leakege current there is always some current flowing in the ground wire and the ground potentials of different electrical power outlets are never equal.

The leakege current can also cause other type of problems. In some situations there are ground fault detect interrupter (GFCI) circuits in use the leakage current caused by many equipments together can make the GFCI to cut the current. Typically GFCI circuits are designed to cut current when there is 30 mA or more difference in currents flowing in live and neutral wires (the difference of those current must flow to ground). Some GFCI circuit can cut the mains feed even at 15 mA leakage current which may mean that if you connect many computer equipments (each of them having 0.5 to 2 mA of leakage) to GFCI protected power outlet you can cause the GFCI to cut the power feed. . .

Ground means something connected to the surrounding and it must be less then x ohms measured with AC and the wire must handle the short circuit current present in the circuit without overheating.


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Old July 15th, 2005, 07:51 AM   #17
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i have the kit and its great. 4 gauge wire is $$ to start with in the first place. my friend bought some amp wires from tsunami that ran $100 and taht was with our discount at work. i think the kit helps out in the so cal heat when i have the ac on
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Old July 19th, 2005, 06:26 PM   #18
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i have the kit and its great. 4 gauge wire is $$ to start with in the first place. my friend bought some amp wires from tsunami that ran $100 and taht was with our discount at work. i think the kit helps out in the so cal heat when i have the ac on

I bought the ground wire but never put it on because I read it doesn't make a difference. You think so?
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Old July 19th, 2005, 09:02 PM   #19
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Post More info on why properly grounding your ride is important!

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan
I bought the ground wire but never put it on because I read it doesn't make a difference. You think so?

YES, here's some ADDITIONAL INFO from different car TECH SITES further explaining WHY properly GROUNDING your RIDE is IMPORTANT . . .


Quote:
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/MkII_NologyInstall.html

WHY A GOOD GROUND IS IMPORTANT:

I thought it important to explain why a good ground is very important when installing the Nology Hot Wires. Nology Hot Wires pulse the spark at 4 nano seconds and 1000 amps. Because of this extremely high pulse current and high frequency, an excellent "frame ground" is necessary. Also the specific characteristic of the pulse, its frequency, must be taken into account. As the frequency of the current goes up what happens is that the current tends to flow towards the outside of the conductor, this is known in electronics as the "skin effect". To give you an idea of what frequency we are talking about, then consider the formula Freq = 1/Time. So if we use this formula we see that Freq = 1/4 nano seconds and that divides out to 250 megahertz. At that frequency the "skin effect" would be very much in effect. So the reason I am explaining all of the is because the ground wire must have a very large surface area so that the current will have a maximum amount of "skin" to move on. That is why I chose a 2/0 sized welding cable conductor. It has thousands of smaller wires that add up to a very large surface or "skin" area for the high frequency current pulse to travel on. Also to take into account, since you will see in this installation, that the most logical place to ground the Nology Hot Wires is on the air intake connector, that is mounted on the throttle body. One must look at the ground path from the air intake connector to the real ground which is the negative terminal of the battery. If you take a good look at the ground path you will see that there are several gaskets in the path. Remember that we are talking about a high frequency pulse current, so maximum "skin" area is very important. A gasket will block that current. That is why running a heavy ground wire from frame ground to the air intake connector is very important. This will provide the shortest, most direct path to ground, and will allow a maximum amount of conductor area or "skin" for the current to travel.

Quote:
http://www.wiring-harness-ron-francis.com/article_7.htm

Grounding Guidelines
If you don't want to run ground wires for these items you had best make sure they have a clean unpainted, un-corroded ground

alternator
horn (s)
gauge (s)
headlight switch
some wiper switches

1st The battery MUST be grounded to the engine NO! Not the frame and then too the engine
Ever see a factory car with the battery to the frame rather than direct tot he block? Sure their front mounted batteries. What about the original engine in you old car?

2nd the frame and body must now be grounded to the block. Same bolt or area of the block it best. The shorter the path the grounds must pass thru steel and iron the better

3rd Steel is just as good you say? Consider this Copper is the best conductor used in an automobile. Let�s call that 100%. Brass is only 22% and steel is only 16% quite a loss? Yes. If I told you the starter was working on about 9 or 10 volts, you’d fix it quick? I think you would. Well, it’s working on a lot less than you think , so fix it. Battery to block, block to frame, block to body.

4th What about the items mentioned above. IF they have a GOOD ground. Great. They might already be working. Did you clean the metal bare? Yes, rust is actually better than paint. You don’t mind scratching the rust off but you hesitate to clean off the paint? Must do...

5th Gauges, lights, etc? On a steel car they might be OK. Fiberglass cars it is a must to use a full grounding system, Most new cars are now getting full ground systems even with steel for good reason. Ever have a high beam indicator glow a little even when on the low beams? How about a taillight that doesn’t seem as bright as the other? Replaced the bulb and it didn’t fix it? Bulbs are either good or bad. No half bright. Have a turn signal that flashes faster on one side than the other? You have it...

6th Switches? Steering columns? Why ground a switch or steering column? The headlight switch has an interior light switch built into it. If the switch isn’t grounded, that part of the switch can’t work. WIRE WORKS includes this ground wire. Trouble shooting calls have dropped significantly with this improvement

Steering columns? They have a switch for the horn. It closes the circuit to ground to operate the horn relay. No ground no horn. Bolting it into the steel dash will usually work. Not always and never if the mounts are against fiberglass or in rubber.

7th Wiper switches often work off a ground also. Newer (1960 to 70's stuff)

8th Gauges and Lights, like high beam indicator or turn indicators and interior lights need a good ground. Headlights, taillights and parking lights need a ground, you knew that. Did you know that if they’re dim or operate funny they nee a better ground?

Gauges always need one except ammeters and hopefully I talked you out of that a long time ago. Still using one? Call me.....

9th Using our GW-15 grounding terminal block is great for these smaller items. The block has a heavy feed wire that is connected directly to the battery or mounting bolt on the block near the starter. The starter is usually closer and completes the path with a heavier wire. Grounding directly to some battery terminals allows corrosion to built up on small wires which is more critical than just the heavy starter cable.

10th The braided cables work good from the block to the frame and body both. Nothing should be over looked. You can run too many fuses but never too many grounds.

Grounding headlights, especially Halogen bulbs to the bucket or fender is almost always an eventual problem

Electric fans draw buckets of juice. A separate ground wire to the central system location can keep you cool in more ways then one

You should take advantage of any accessory with a separate ground lead. Rather than shove this under a mounting bolt, run it to the central grounding area.

Horns are usually OK grounded to the steel body or frame.

Central grounding location makes troubleshooting great.

Electric fuel pumps and gas senders are usually easiest grounded to the frame A separate ground to the central location is better

Master disconnects are best installed in the positive cable. This is especially important with electronic accessories or fuel injection

Typical battery locations require grounding the battery to the engine block and then a back up rear ground to the frame near the battery

Aluminum transmission and starter housings can sometime create electrolysis (corrosion) with dissimilar metal like brass battery cable lugs. It is best to run the ground cable to the cast iron block.

Use the engine as the primary ground connection and attach the frame, central grounding terminal strip and steel body to the same stud if possible.

Quote:

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/ImproveGrounds.html

Detailed Instructions on How To Improve Your Cars Ground Cables


WHY ARE GROUNDS IMPORTANT
-------------------------

A good ground from the battery to chassis is very important for the
proper operation of your entire electrical system.

A proper ground, believe it or not, will also aid in your engine
idling properly, and that a proper spark gets to the spark plug.

A proper ground will also ensure that your starter will work properly
and will actually help lengthen its life.

STOCK PROBLEM
-------------

The main problem that I have seen is that stock, from the factory
the NEGATIVE cable is bolted to a nut that is welded to the chassis.

The problem with this being that it is relying on, for the most part,
contact through the threads. As some know, the contact patch around
where the cable lug touches the chassis, is usually painted. This does
not make a good conducter. Also for most of the upgrades, and addons
that the average enthusiast installs, adds on even more electrical load.
Also the stock cable is usually cheap, and not very well made.


SOLUTION
--------

I will explain what I did to my 1993 MR2 Turbo, and you can easily
apply this to just about any car.

On the MR2T 3S-GTE engine, there are two main points to concentrate
on, these are the NEGATIVE battery terminal, and the chassis to
transmission cable in the engine compartment.

First off, there are different types of cable, and different types of
cable lugs. Welding cable lugs are typically larger, and will be more
difficult to work with, as some of the standard sized welding cable
lugs have very large eyelets in them, and will be far too large to
fit the stock bolt. . .

Quote:

http://www.abrn.com/abrn/article/art....jsp?id=154932

Metal Shop: Electrolysis and Grounding 101

. . . Grounding more important than ever
No doubt, the installation of additional electrical systems, components, microprocessors, sensors, electric motors, electronic convenience items and related circuitry has placed an added burden on the automotive service industry in general and body shops specifically. Although microprocessors are capable of providing feedback through self-diagnostics, they have limitations. That means service technicians need various scan tools and electronic meters to receive the two-way communication that today’s electronic components provide. Having the tools is one thing. Understanding the concepts and interpreting the readings are critical to successful diagnostics.

In spite of the electronic revolution sweeping the industry, one basic tenant remains unchanged. To complete the flow of electricity, the negative circuitry emanating from the battery must be properly grounded. Almost without exception, the frame and/or body sheet metal serve as the primary grounding device for the electrical system. If properly connected, it is in fact an extension of the battery negative connection. Although the body is typically isolated from the chassis by non-conductive, cushioned insulators, the many supplemental ground wires connected to each vehicle body are connected back to the chassis and the battery by one or more body-to-frame jumper wires.

While the vehicles of yesteryear may have had just a few ground wires, it is quite common to have between 10 and 20 chassis-ground connections sharing the load today. Each must be functioning properly to complete the circuit and route the flow of electricity back to the battery. Any broken, loose or corroded connections are almost sure to cause a malfunction and/or alter the flow of electricity. Because it takes the path of least resistance, electrical current will stray from its intended route and create a return flow by looking elsewhere.

Be suspicious of ground wires
Damage to ground wires is almost inevitable, even during a moderate collision causing $3,000 to $7,000 in damage. During the repair process, be sure to check your collision repair reference to make sure you know the location and connection points for all ground wires. When they are securely connected, the electrical path is well defined. On the other hand, any breach will cause the electricity to find the shortest, easiest, quickest path of least resistance. Particularly for electrical components or circuitry in close proximity to the radiator or heater—that path can involve the coolant itself.

If you have the occasion to check for electrolysis, use a digital voltmeter set for 12 volts. Attach one test lead to the negative battery post and insert the other test lead into the radiator’s coolant, making sure the lead does not touch the filler neck or the core. Initially, you may see a surface charge that could be 0.7 volts or higher. It could take up to two minutes for this surface charge to dissipate. Only then will you be able to obtain an accurate reading. A voltage reading of 0.3 or higher indicates that stray current is finding its path to ground through the cooling system.

Cooling fans and A/C-heater fans are logical sources to check and eliminate early in your diagnostic process. Then check any non-factory accessories that have been added. Next, you can turn the ignition to the run position while turning various accessories on and off. When the meter’s voltage jumps, you’ve found the circuit with a bad ground. A small amount of electricity normally flows through a vehicle’s cooling system. In a properly grounded system, this small charge (less than 0.3V) is constantly discharged and no harm is done.

Serious problems with stray-current electrolysis can occur when the cooling system is not grounded or when an ungrounded electrical device is part of the vehicle’s operating system. The cooling system then becomes a warehouse for this stray electricity, and the coolant turns into an electrolyte. This charged coolant is constantly searching for a ground or a way out of the system. When it finds a material it can attack (the path of least resistance), the coolant goes to work “eating through” that material radiator and/or heater causing damage such as the following:
· Solder-joint destruction
· Aluminum corrosion and flake formation that clogs the system
· Cast-iron corrosion that causes rust to contaminate the cooling system

Stray current also can be a problem with new, straight-from-the-factory vehicles. Back in 1986, Ford recalled approximately 19,400 vehicles to find a misrouted battery cable that could send a low-grade electrical current through the radiator, setting up an electrolytic action that could promptly ruin the radiator.
Frequently, by the time your customer realizes electrolysis is taking place, the radiator or heater damage is already done. Unlike a radio that frequently hums when a short exists or a resistor malfunctions, the cooling system does not emit an audible sound. To make sure that electrolysis doesn’t start in your shop, let your technicians know the importance of reconnecting all ground wires.

What the future holds
For sure, you and your technicians will see more, increasingly complex electrical components and circuits in the vehicles that are brought to your shop for collision repair. As the price of mass-produced technology declines and consumer demand for convenience increases, the world of the possible will continue coming to the automotive industry. Many other ideas that are common in the aerospace industry remain to be transferred to automotive applications.

Soon water pumps will be electrically driven. Hybrid electric cars are already here. Battery-powered vehicles are on the horizon. These vehicles already operate at higher voltages and carry warnings about possible electrocution. A near-term change using existing technology is the 42V electrical system. Any electrolysis problems are likely to be the same, but the higher voltage is a good bet to cause larger and/or faster problems.

Tune in to new developments and stay current with diagnostic tools and procedures. Proper electrical grounding is just one of the many facets of collision repair that you need to know. Lack of knowledge is no ground for returning your customers’ vehicles with incomplete repairs and easily avoided radiator and/or heater failures caused by electrolysis.

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Old July 19th, 2005, 09:15 PM   #20
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toooo looonnnnnggg
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:18 PM   #21
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Still haven't gotten the kit I ordered in June (?). PMed Garrett and it came back with:

"gme2001 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

What is the status with the orders? Will we get free V6P stuff for our inconvenience? ;-)
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Old July 23rd, 2005, 07:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima8
Still haven't gotten the kit I ordered in June (?). PMed Garrett and it came back with:

"gme2001 has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."

What is the status with the orders? Will we get free V6P stuff for our inconvenience? ;-)

I apologize for the delay on your order. To check on the status of your order you can also send Garrett an email [email protected] I believe Garrett notified everyone a few weeks ago that due to his busy schedule there would be a 2-3 week delivery time on some of our products.

FYI . . . Garrett has been working on my AV6 project car since coming back from vacation, which has caused some delivery delays. WE have been on a very tight timeline to get all new products R&D for SEMA, and have been hit with ongoing and unforeseen delays. It's very hard to get everyone running on a regular time schedule, one delay causes a ripple effect of delays on the rest of our projects. So all we can do is re-group and continue.

For your inconvenience, ask Garrett to include a set of v6performance.net decals. If you are still not satisfied, please PM me or send me an email [email protected].

Maurice
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Old July 25th, 2005, 10:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrV6P
I apologize for the delay on your order. To check on the status of your order you can also send Garrett an email [email protected] I believe Garrett notified everyone a few weeks ago that due to his busy schedule there would be a 2-3 week delivery time on some of our products.

FYI . . . Garrett has been working on my AV6 project car since coming back from vacation, which has caused some delivery delays. WE have been on a very tight timeline to get all new products R&D for SEMA, and have been hit with ongoing and unforeseen delays. It's very hard to get everyone running on a regular time schedule, one delay causes a ripple effect of delays on the rest of our projects. So all we can do is re-group and continue.

For your inconvenience, ask Garrett to include a set of v6performance.net decals. If you are still not satisfied, please PM me or send me an email [email protected].

Maurice
Thanks. I sent him a message. I understand about the delays, I was just hoping that we would get some word about it, so I guess this fits the bill.

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