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Old August 3rd, 2005, 01:46 AM   #1
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VTEC Range for 7 Gen AV6

I dont know if anyone asked this question already, but I can't find it anywhere. Just wondering, at what RPM does VTEC kick in for 7th Gen AV6 (6MT)? What is the best way to feel it? Floor it? Thanks in advance.
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Old August 3rd, 2005, 11:12 AM   #2
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Give it WOT, let it rev out, you will hear it engauge around 4200 until redline. Dont expect it to feel like a turbo boosting, but you will full the pull increase. Get an intake, you will hear and feel it more!
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Old August 3rd, 2005, 01:17 PM   #3
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I'm pretty sure vtec doesn't engage that early in the rev band. I think it's up towards 5000 rpm somewhere.

The 4200 rpm kick you're feeling is probably the intake switchover to the high rpm mode.
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Old August 3rd, 2005, 04:49 PM   #4
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I could've sworn it was 4k??? I cant imagine they would put it as high as 5k on a V6.
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Old August 3rd, 2005, 05:49 PM   #5
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As far as I know, for S2000, you only feel it when the RPM is around 6000. So even if thay make it around 5000 for 7th Gen 6MT, that might sound logic too?
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Old August 3rd, 2005, 07:34 PM   #6
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i think its at 4500
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Old August 4th, 2005, 05:41 AM   #7
 
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4900 rpm...
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Old August 4th, 2005, 10:20 AM   #8
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VTEC is 4900, plenum switch is between 3900 and 4100.

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Old August 4th, 2005, 10:31 AM   #9
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Thanks for the clarification, J.
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Old August 4th, 2005, 10:41 AM   #10
 
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I thought VTEC was at 4000 and plenum was at 5000? At least, using my butt dyno, I feel the pull at 4000 and the engine gets much louder at 5000...
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Old August 4th, 2005, 09:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honcho
I thought VTEC was at 4000 and plenum was at 5000? At least, using my butt dyno, I feel the pull at 4000 and the engine gets much louder at 5000...
Clarification: Helms supplemental manual for 2004 V6 page 11-23. IMRCM (Intake manifold runner control (IMRC) Actuator Monitor) Detects IMRC actuator position. Signal with engine running: about 5 V With engine speed above 4200 rpm: about 0 V.

That is the actuation point of the Intake manifold controller.
VTEC activation is not electrically activated, it is by oil pressure and a solenoid, so it has a variable range at which it activates. Usually 4900 to 5000, but the book doesn't state this.

Of further interest, I also saw on page 11-33 Engine cutoff is at 6900 rpm unless the vehicle is stationary, at which point engine cut off is 5000 rpm.


J

Last edited by Jinx32; August 4th, 2005 at 09:09 PM..
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Old August 5th, 2005, 07:36 AM   #12
 
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Hey Jinx-were can I get a Helms supplemental manual?
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Old August 5th, 2005, 10:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by futureracer
Hey Jinx-were can I get a Helms supplemental manual?
www.helminc.com

For the 2004 model year, there are 3 service manuals for the Accord.

1. Service Manual - covers I4 engine and all common parts between the V6 and I4
2. V6 Supplemental - covers V6 and all changes affected by install of V6
3. Electrical - goes into vast detail on the brain of the car, not just checking continuity and voltages like the other 2 manuals.

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Old August 5th, 2005, 11:06 AM   #14
 
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make a vtec light...
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Old August 5th, 2005, 12:43 PM   #15
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Thanks for the input guys. So the VTEC for 7th Gen starts at 4900 RPM. I havent really step on my gas whenever my car reach 4900 RPM, but as far as I remember, I don't feel the sudden pull for VTEC. The reason why I am saying this is because I tried my friend's S2000 last night, and when VTEC engaged at about 6500 RPM, you will feel the sudden pull, very obvious power that VTEC was on. On the 7th Gen, is it supposed to do that as well? The S2000 that I tried was basically stock. It has comptech muffler though. Don't know if that help much.
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Old August 5th, 2005, 01:02 PM   #16
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I could tell somewhat when vtec engaged when my car was stock, but it became much more noticable after I installed my Injen CAI.
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Old August 5th, 2005, 01:12 PM   #17
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the lobe difference for an s2000 should be much bigger and thats probably why you felt it more in it.
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Old August 5th, 2005, 03:42 PM   #18
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plus, both the intake and exhaust valves on the s2k have vtec on them, where as the v6 only is acted on the intake valves
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Old August 5th, 2005, 09:19 PM   #19
 
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I will add that vtec now isnt really set at an RPM, its variable on 8 million conditions, but you will never see it kick in at 2K rpms...
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Old August 5th, 2005, 09:41 PM   #20
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04phataccord
I will add that vtec now isnt really set at an RPM, its variable on 8 million conditions, but you will never see it kick in at 2K rpms...
Your talking about VTC (Variable Timing Control) on Honda's I-VTEC engines (minus the V6 Hybrid, uses VCM).

Breakdown of I-VTEC (VTC): http://asia.vtec.net/article/ivtec/



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Old August 6th, 2005, 02:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myone
Thanks for the input guys. So the VTEC for 7th Gen starts at 4900 RPM. I havent really step on my gas whenever my car reach 4900 RPM, but as far as I remember, I don't feel the sudden pull for VTEC. The reason why I am saying this is because I tried my friend's S2000 last night, and when VTEC engaged at about 6500 RPM, you will feel the sudden pull, very obvious power that VTEC was on. On the 7th Gen, is it supposed to do that as well? The S2000 that I tried was basically stock. It has comptech muffler though. Don't know if that help much.
the vtec on the s2000 is very noticeable because its a sports car, not to mention the fact that its the only i4 honda with true vtec, and not i vtec. accords are quiet stock so its not as noticeable but u can still hear the sound. with an intake, it becomes even more noticeable.
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Old August 7th, 2005, 01:58 AM   #22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumaccordcoupe
Your talking about VTC (Variable Timing Control) on Honda's I-VTEC engines (minus the V6 Hybrid, uses VCM).

Breakdown of I-VTEC (VTC): http://asia.vtec.net/article/ivtec/
lol i know what vtec is..but whats your point??
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Old August 7th, 2005, 10:21 AM   #23
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Yeah vtec engagement is not as noticeable in SOHC motors as in th DOHC motors, you can see the difference in dyno plots.......these were my first runsl in my h22 swapped 5th gen......not a good image but if you look some b16 h22 f20 plots and compare them to f22.j30 etc... plots you can see the difference.........


Last edited by jkrig; August 7th, 2005 at 10:47 AM..
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Old August 10th, 2005, 07:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumaccordcoupe
Your talking about VTC (Variable Timing Control) on Honda's I-VTEC engines (minus the V6 Hybrid, uses VCM).

Breakdown of I-VTEC (VTC): http://asia.vtec.net/article/ivtec/
Not necessarily. The Helms manual does not give an activation point for the VTEC engagement because it is actually variable based on oil pressure and activation by the solenoid. It usually happens between 4900 and 5100. So in essence, it could be effected by high oil pressure, crappy oil, how much gas you are giving it, or if you let off. My understanding is that those I-VTEC engines, the I stands for "Intelligent" but I think it only controls the cam phase, not the VTEC activation. Who knows? I only know that the AV6 J30 is a SOHC VTEC with variable intake plenum. Plenum switches at 4200 and VTEC engages whenever the hell the oil pressure is high enough to activate the solenoid. Unsure if the solenoid is oil or electrically activated.

J
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Old August 10th, 2005, 08:19 AM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx32
Not necessarily. The Helms manual does not give an activation point for the VTEC engagement because it is actually variable based on oil pressure and activation by the solenoid. It usually happens between 4900 and 5100. So in essence, it could be effected by high oil pressure, crappy oil, how much gas you are giving it, or if you let off. My understanding is that those I-VTEC engines, the I stands for "Intelligent" but I think it only controls the cam phase, not the VTEC activation. Who knows? I only know that the AV6 J30 is a SOHC VTEC with variable intake plenum. Plenum switches at 4200 and VTEC engages whenever the hell the oil pressure is high enough to activate the solenoid. Unsure if the solenoid is oil or electrically activated.

J
Thanks for also saying there is no set point. You forgot that out side conditions also present issues such as humidity and such. In my 4ctl accord for example I was at 2K rpms and floored it (i have an intake btw) so as soon as i floored it not soon after did vtec kick in. (downshift as well) Mind you if you have an auto and a stock intake its very hard to tell becuase the car can downshift with out u noticing and you will be back in vtec range. A day like today when its hot and nasty I probably wouldnt see that.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 11:20 PM   #26
 
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It sucks that we J30A4 autos don't have the double plenum intake manifold ... boo hoo

I suppose the benefit is only at low RPM and WOT (like from a stop), anywhere above 25mph in an auto at WOT for sure the tranny would kick down and you'd at least be at about 4K RPM.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 11:25 PM   #27
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04phataccord
Thanks for also saying there is no set point. You forgot that out side conditions also present issues such as humidity and such. In my 4ctl accord for example I was at 2K rpms and floored it (i have an intake btw) so as soon as i floored it not soon after did vtec kick in. (downshift as well) Mind you if you have an auto and a stock intake its very hard to tell becuase the car can downshift with out u noticing and you will be back in vtec range. A day like today when its hot and nasty I probably wouldnt see that.
I remember the story about racers having trouble with honda cars (I4's except S2000) during auto x-ing.
Due to very high lateral g's in a turn the engine oil would shift to one side of the engine block slightly dropping the oil pressure and causing the engine to drop out of VTEC even at high RPM and WOT.
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Old August 13th, 2005, 12:18 AM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by Jinx32
Not necessarily. The Helms manual does not give an activation point for the VTEC engagement because it is actually variable based on oil pressure and activation by the solenoid. It usually happens between 4900 and 5100. So in essence, it could be effected by high oil pressure, crappy oil, how much gas you are giving it, or if you let off. My understanding is that those I-VTEC engines, the I stands for "Intelligent" but I think it only controls the cam phase, not the VTEC activation. Who knows? I only know that the AV6 J30 is a SOHC VTEC with variable intake plenum. Plenum switches at 4200 and VTEC engages whenever the hell the oil pressure is high enough to activate the solenoid. Unsure if the solenoid is oil or electrically activated.

J
Odd that the engine would work in that way. The J30A1's is set at 3500 rpm. The only times it won't work is if there isn't enough oil, if the engine hasn't warmed up yet, or if you are in neutral or park.

J30A4 engine info: http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...37574&mime=asc

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04phataccord
lol i know what vtec is..but whats your point??
No, you don't. The majority of VTEC (cam changing) engines have a set point. And even those that donít like the J30A4 still have a small range at which it will activate. I-VTEC (cam phasing and changing) engines are a bit different.



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Old August 13th, 2005, 09:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by myone
Thanks for the input guys. So the VTEC for 7th Gen starts at 4900 RPM. I havent really step on my gas whenever my car reach 4900 RPM, but as far as I remember, I don't feel the sudden pull for VTEC. The reason why I am saying this is because I tried my friend's S2000 last night, and when VTEC engaged at about 6500 RPM, you will feel the sudden pull, very obvious power that VTEC was on. On the 7th Gen, is it supposed to do that as well? The S2000 that I tried was basically stock. It has comptech muffler though. Don't know if that help much.
Well, when I had my RSX-S with jsut an intake, the crossover was very noticiable. It was like a 30whp difference, plus the lack of torque before crossover.

With the Accord, we have such a smooth powerband and a decent amount of low end torque, so the crossover isn't as drastic. I can still feel it, especially since i got the CAI on, but its not that noticiable in both sound and power as other vtec equipped cars I have driven (GSR, RSX-S, etc.).
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Old August 14th, 2005, 02:37 AM   #30
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Well, when I had my RSX-S with jsut an intake, the crossover was very noticiable. It was like a 30whp difference, plus the lack of torque before crossover.

With the Accord, we have such a smooth powerband and a decent amount of low end torque, so the crossover isn't as drastic. I can still feel it, especially since i got the CAI on, but its not that noticiable in both sound and power as other vtec equipped cars I have driven (GSR, RSX-S, etc.).


I test drove my friend's RSX-S tonight, and I can feel it when VTEC kicked in at 6000 RPM. You will feel more torque and power, not bad for a small car like that.

Then I test drove my 6MT moments later to test out the VTEC. I can feel a little and hear a little when RPM reached 5000 RPM. Not that I can feel a little but I think the car is so smooth that the power goes up smoothly too.

Then I was driving up a hill at about 30% grade on 3rd gear going at about 45mph. Suddenly I noticed a car was approaching me from the back, fast. So I waited a little to see what kind of car was it. When the car was slowly pulling next to me, I noticed it was a Prelude, probably 2002 or 2003 model. The car was 1/2 a car length in front of me when I step on the gas on 3rd gear, and as soon as I step on my gas, I think he knew I was trying to race him and so he started to floor it too, as I can hear the sound change on his muffler with my window down. Without hesitation, my 6MT pulled ahead slowly, and when VTEC kicked in at about 5000 RPM, I can feel the rush and moments after that, the Prelude was about a car's length behind (going downhill at the moment) I guess I really tested out my car today.

But I won't say that was a great little race, since mine has 6 cyclinders and the Prelude only has 4. Also, my 6MT is a stock car, no CAI or anything. If I have CAI, I beleive it would go faster?

Last edited by myone; August 14th, 2005 at 02:39 AM..
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