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Old November 2nd, 2007, 08:57 AM   #1
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Caution with Solid Sways

I've been researching various setups and cannot lose this feeling of distrust with the solid TL-S sway bar's that people are starting to use; I don't think that enough testing has been done to rule out the possibility of an overly-rigid sway arrangement causing collateral damage to the vehicle's underpinnings. You cannot replace a part which is designed with an inherent amount of flex with a part which is too rigid and not expect some sort of consequence.

When traversing curbs/potholes or making hard turns, a car with such a set up runs the risk of ripping the sway mounts or damaging the endlinks they are attached to. For me, this is unacceptable. You must consider the donor vehicle and the engineering of the parts conected to these bars before slaping them on yours.

It is for this reason that I believe that the ideal upgrade involves a compromise using a thicker bar, but one which can still flex without causing undue stress to the other components connected to it. Mods should be done only after considering the effect it will have on the vehicle as a whole.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:11 AM   #2
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I could understand a larger sway bar ripping out the subframe and sway mounts from say an older EG or EK civic or integra....some companies like beaks and ASR make products that reinforce the subframe to prevent damage to the vehicle when using the thicker bar - but not on a TL or Accord

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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:13 AM   #3
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I dont see a problem with it, and ive never heard of this being a problem before...
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:14 AM   #4
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i dont know about how you drive your accord but i have the front and rear tl sways and the only way i think it would snap or break certain parts is if someone tried to pull some sort of initial d style turning.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:18 AM   #5
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i think we would of heard of a problem with using tl-s sway bars..people have been using them for quite some time..the only possible problem would be in the rain or snow making a hard turn at high speeds..but if u do that ur askin for trouble regardless of the setup..
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:26 AM   #6
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This posting was one of the most intelligently written posts I've seen so far on V6P. Regarding the components being developed for higher end cars, I believe that many use the TL stuff because it is the same as the Accord's. I am pretty sure that the endlinks and what not are pretty much the same across the two cars.

We've been having companies produce reinforced components for our cars, such as engine mounts and axles. Why not have a company make us some reinforced endlinks? That combined with some poly bushings would definitely compliment these large sway bar upgrades.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:31 AM   #7
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My concern would not be damaging underpinnings of the Accord but the fact that the TL sways were not designed for the Accord and may cause too much over or understeer and a false sense of control. I'd rather have a suspension set-up that has been extensively R & Ded by a top company like Hotchkis and so forth. Unfortunanly, you Accord owners don't have too many options.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 11:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SixSpeeder View Post
My concern would not be damaging underpinnings of the Accord but the fact that the TL sways were not designed for the Accord and may cause too much over or understeer and a false sense of control. I'd rather have a suspension set-up that has been extensively R & Ded by a top company like Hotchkis and so forth. Unfortunanly, you Accord owners don't have too many options.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 11:59 AM   #9
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^i have a comptech sway, and i'm pretty sure they wouldn't sell this if it would damage the sway mounts or endlinks.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 05:42 PM   #10
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are the 2004 6MT TL sway bars solid?
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 06:13 PM   #11
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I've been researching various setups and cannot lose this feeling of distrust with the solid TL-S sway bar's that people are starting to use; I don't think that enough testing has been done to rule out the possibility of an overly-rigid sway arrangement causing collateral damage to the vehicle's underpinnings. You cannot replace a part which is designed with an inherent amount of flex with a part which is too rigid and not expect some sort of consequence.

When traversing curbs/potholes or making hard turns, a car with such a set up runs the risk of ripping the sway mounts or damaging the endlinks they are attached to. For me, this is unacceptable. You must consider the donor vehicle and the engineering of the parts conected to these bars before slaping them on yours.



It is for this reason that I believe that the ideal upgrade involves a compromise using a thicker bar, but one which can still flex without causing undue stress to the other components connected to it. Mods should be done only after considering the effect it will have on the vehicle as a whole.
So, tell us more about your research. As an example, what exactly is the difference between the TL mounting points vs. the Accord's. Are exactly how are the endlinks in the 2 cars significantly different? Your suggestion of caution is perfectly reasonable. Tell us exactly what the basis of your call for caution is based on per your research as it relates to the Accord and TL. Please tell us what source will assure us that "the effect it will have on the vehicle as a whole" has been confirmed to be benign. Does the experience of other users enter into it? What negative reports regarding torn chassis mounts or endlinks have your found? I'm sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I'm aware of no basis for your call for caution as it relates to the Accord.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 09:12 PM   #12
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Right on, guys. The purpose of this thread was to inspire debate on the matter and see what knowledge this community could bring to bear on my concern.

When I lost my MR2, one of the hardest things to deal with was knowing that it was time for me to move on into a larger, more useable car. THe MR2 community has a tremendous knowledge base, as the car has been around for so many years. I was concerned that the next vehicle I bought would bring along with it a less-developed user base, so I dug in and for each car I considered, I spent time lurking on their respective forums. There's no better way to gage complaints and praise than by seeing what everyday people do and experience with their cars.

Part of the reason why I went with the 7th gen Accord Coupe was that I could not find significant complaints about it. Haha, I can think of a few nits to pick, but in reality, they don't amount to much and certainly aren't compelling enough to turn me away. I wish the clutch pedal didnt have such a long throw- I would love it if I could adjust the height of it to be an inch or two lower.

With that out of the way and getting back on track, most of my "research" was actually conjecture, having only fragments of data to piece together for lack of time. As sways apply to MR2s and other cars, the concerns I have have been proven legitimate. It is with caution that I proceed with modifying any car. I woudl love to know how thick the endlinks and mounting points are on the acura.

In truth, I was expecting to get a few sarcastic retorts from the more seasoned members of this forum with fact backing up their opinions, and I think that what I received so far was much more valuable. You guys aren't the civic or integra forum. In fact, you aren't even like the other 7th gen-specific forums out there; the crowd here is young, yet mature- curious, yet well-thought. Rock on! I plan on upgrading my sways, but I still remain torn between the TL's and the TL-S's.


Rock on!


BTW:

"^i have a comptech sway, and i'm pretty sure they wouldn't sell this if it would damage the sway mounts or endlinks."

Dude, I can name a few companies who make mount-ripping bars for the MR2. I may be off becasue these cars are old!

Also, I think that if you swap out for an appropriately staggered set of sways, the car will remain balanced, but you will quickly overrun the limits of the stock rubber. If you mod, do all the supporting mods that go along with it. Otherwise, you could very well have a dangerous sense of false confidence.
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Last edited by fdesalvo; November 2nd, 2007 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: I'm an idiot...
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 10:44 PM   #13
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Well I have the 2004 6MT TL sway bars on my 2005 V6 Sedan. I dont know if they are hollow or not but judging from their weight and the sound they made when I banged them against eachother and the ground... they sound solid so I'll continue with what I was going to say:

First of all, the only "mods" that I have on my car are the AEM V2 and a ground kit which arent suspension related... suspension-wise, the only mod are these sway bars because the wheels are just OEM optional 17's with Michelins (I previously had 215/50/17 but now I have 225/50/17's which I am not that pleased with).

Well I got the sways on when I had the 215's and I had just ONE instance when I nearly lost control of the car. I posted about it here, it was on my way home from having them installed and a member said it was most likely caused by the sways "settling in". The difference was immediately noted, no increased under/over-steer... I was able to take freeway on/off-ramps with tires screeching and the car held its ground perfectly.

I havent experienced any of the horror "tail-whip" stories described by other members here.

Now that I downgraded to the 225's the tires give too much flex and the car feels like a boat while taking a turn, it kind of irritates me but I'm in the process of selling the car so I'll be leaving those tires on it. I'm still able to push it to the limit and get the tires screeching around turns and such... I think you just have to know how to drive your (specifically a FWD) car into, through, and out of a turn. I say that because I have been in a huge open parking lot and I am easily able to force my tail to spin out by using a wrong technique.

I know what I've said so far is kind of irrelevant to what you are bringing up about the added stress that these "upgrades" add to the different components of the suspension, but taking what I have done with my car... I have put it through plenty of maximum load/abuse and its all still intact, everything is OEM (whether it be from Honda/Acura).

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to try to completely share my experiences with the TL sway bars, hollow or solid.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 02:05 AM   #14
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Do we have anyone here who has had their endlinks detroyed or suspension mounts ripped out due to TL solid sways?... Anyone? That's an honest question because I don't really know. I haven't seen any. I may have turned a blind eye to the Accord when I sold my AV6 6MT last year.


I think you should base your assumptions of the Accord's suspension on the Accord's suspension, not the MR2's. Although all the basics are the same, everything else is different. Geometry, overall design of inteded use. Also keep in mind that a lot of Honda/Acura parts are inter-changable even from generation to generation, and w/o problems to boot.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 04:03 AM   #15
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After 6 months of hard abuse, I have no issues with the sway bars, I did both front and back with 04 TL 6MT sways (the big ones).

Now I do think that it is possible to get over/understeer conditions if you do not match the bars, IE if using just the 6MT rear without the heavier front.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 06:27 PM   #16
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After 6 months of hard abuse, I have no issues with the sway bars, I did both front and back with 04 TL 6MT sways (the big ones).

Now I do think that it is possible to get over/understeer conditions if you do not match the bars, IE if using just the 6MT rear without the heavier front.
I'm in the same exact boat, except I guess that I have a sedan. I also agree that they should be paired together, the problems of the "tailwhipping" incidents occured on cars who only had the rear sway bar also iirc.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 11:05 AM   #17
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people snap end links occasionally with upgraded sways, but there are also people who snap them with the stock sways. If you hop under the car and check them out, they're puny. so to go along with your theory, yes you should probably replace them if you're going to be running a larger swaybar.

as far as the brackets and bushings, the stock ones are pretty flimsy looking, but i don't think I've heard of anyone breaking those. they bolt into a pretty sturdy piece of subframe. I upgraded to some Energy suspension poly bushings when I had the 22mm Comptech swaybar on my 6th gen, totally worth it because they were only like 15 bucks.

I disagree with this:
Quote:
It is for this reason that I believe that the ideal upgrade involves a compromise using a thicker bar, but one which can still flex without causing undue stress to the other components connected to it.
those two outcomes are directly at odds with each other. you will not get better handling and less body roll from a thicker bar that is not stiffer. The thicker bar is (all else being equal, like the composition of the bar) the stiffer it will be. What good would upgrading the sways be if they werent stiffer? but with the extra stiffness comes the extra strain on the other parts of the system. if that risk is unacceptable to you, then you either have to upgrade all the other parts of the system or leave everything alone...
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Old November 5th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #18
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I agree with you. What I meant to say was that upgrading to a stiffer (than stock) set of bars which offered some flex would probably be ideal. Thanks for the info; I found your post to be informative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammer03 View Post

I disagree with this:

those two outcomes are directly at odds with each other. you will not get better handling and less body roll from a thicker bar that is not stiffer. The thicker bar is (all else being equal, like the composition of the bar) the stiffer it will be. What good would upgrading the sways be if they werent stiffer? but with the extra stiffness comes the extra strain on the other parts of the system. if that risk is unacceptable to you, then you either have to upgrade all the other parts of the system or leave everything alone...
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Old November 5th, 2007, 03:46 PM   #19
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I have the 20mm rear TL sway and have not had any problems in 15k miles. There is no noticeable oversteer, even near the limit.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 08:17 PM   #20
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The false sense of ultimate handling my TL-S sway gives has been my only problem so far. Had it on for 10k now.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 09:10 PM   #21
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I am very surprised this issue has never been discussed in the Accord family. I feel it's certainly a very possible concern...which could definetly cause a torn subframe which might be ridiculously expensive to repair.

I have installed an aftermarket rear sway bar from Comptech about 3 years ago for my 04 6sp coupe, which is a solid 22mm bar...during my installation, it's quick to realize the bar is easily just as thick as the rear control arms!! So far in our Accord family there doesnt seem to be any complaints of damage, except maybe to the sway bar links. However we should all be aware that the TSX, which is extreamly similar in suspension design has many documented incidents of this rear subframe damage caused by these upgraded sway bars, especially in addition with performance sway bar bushings (which have no give).

I can see this being an issue for our cars too, if they are being driven overly hard, or regularly through poorly maintenced roads.

Have a look at this link:

http://tsx.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36339

I definetly agree with "fdesalvo", we should all be cautious!!!
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Old November 11th, 2007, 10:15 AM   #22
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Let me say 1st that I view this thread as fdesalvo's call for caution regarding the TLS rear sway bar's potential to damage the Accord's chassis or endlinks as per his initial post. The thread name of "Caution with Solid Sways" seems ill considered since all rear sways (including stock) available for the 7th gen Accord are solid afaik. I still find his call for caution about the TLS bar to have little merit.

Experience with a MR2 having mounting problems is a valid reason to consider this issue. But it's kind of apples and oranges to just presume all cars will have this issue. I did a lot of reading before I put my TL sway bar on my 06 coupe in October of 05. I upgraded to the TLS bar in spring of 06. I ran across a forum discussion where mounting brackets were considered. As I recall, a prior gen Accord (or possibly a related Acura) had mounting bracket problems. The consensus was that the 7th gen Accord had noticeably beefier brackets and it was felt the current generation Accord should not have a similar problem. Further my reading indicated this modification seemed to be quite popular. I can't quantify how many people have installed the TLS rear sway. It does seem clear that more than 4-5 people have done this since 03. This is not something that a few people are just starting to use. I would guess that a 100 or more people have done it over a period of 3-4 years.

I guess I agree most with SixSpeeder's 11-3 post. Have there been any reports of problems with the TLS bar breaking endlinks or mounts? I also haven't had any problems or read about any.

Jon2002's post and link were quite interesting. Although I thought the TL was more closely related to our Accord, I have to agree that the RSX's mounting point looks similar to ours. But I disagree that it supports a call for caution related to installing the TLS sway bar. Maybe a thread calling for caution about the Comptech bar with poly bushings is called for?

I guess I'd recommend to fdesalvo to install the TL 17mm bar if he has misgivings about the TLS 20mm bar. I consider the sway bar modification to be one of the best things I've done to my car. I would think most people would be happy with the TL bar. I preferred the TLS bar over the TL bar after trying both, but that's not to say the TL bar wasn't a very positive improvement.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 10:47 AM   #23
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^After reading this, I would feel comfortable with the TL-S's set. Thanks for the post.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 11:00 AM   #24
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I've actually had my endlink bolt come off before. This was actually recent.., but the reason being was because I don't think I tightened them down all the way. Other than that.. no problems and I take hard corners every where.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 11:04 AM   #25
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As an engineer, I simply do not see how it is possible for a thicker sway bar to tear the subframe unless the subframe is so flexible that one side of it is deflecting more than the other enough to cause any damage. Even so, the sway bar end links would have to be stronger than the subframe, which is ridiculous. One of the purposes of the end links is to be the 'weak link' of the system that will fracture before the mounts do.

If I were installing a solid 20mm swaybar on a 60's Mustang Convertible, I might have misgivings because of extreme chassis flex at speed. But a 2003+ Accord? That's just fear mongering and paranoia IMO.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 04:15 PM   #26
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Wait so which bars are the best? The 2007 Type S bars?
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Old November 11th, 2007, 07:28 PM   #27
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Wait so which bars are the best? The 2007 Type S bars?
Please clarify your question. Are you concerned about the year? Or is it about the size( 20mm vs 17mm vs 22mm)do you have other mods that can affect the issue? What is it you are looking for that you would consider "best"? Have you considered whether a new thread might be appropriate? Your question is buried under "Caution with Solid Sways". Have you done a search? There's a ton of info already out there about sway bars. I'm not trying to jerk you around, but I think all my questions are valid regarding your query. You won't really get a valid answer without some clarification. If you didn't bother searching for something that's been discussed to death I doubt that people will be real enthused to provide a lot of input.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 08:18 PM   #28
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i think we would of heard of a problem with using tl-s sway bars..people have been using them for quite some time..the only possible problem would be in the rain or snow making a hard turn at high speeds..but if u do that ur askin for trouble regardless of the setup..
Not necessarily. I do it all the time because primarily due to having aftermarket Toyo Proxes 4 tires which do quite well in wet weather as well as knowing I got VSA standard on 7th gen V6s, I can usually rip turns pretty good with these really good tires even it's been raining quite a bit and as long as it's not flooded out. Maybe a solid TL sway bar could jeopardize this freedom and cause a "bottleneck"??

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