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Old January 13th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #31
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They are slow for the power rating they have. I think we can all agree to that.

I'd take a BOSS302 mustang over a Hyundai Genesis.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #32
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Your argument seems a little biased because the car is a Hyundai in my opinion.
No need to state the obvious. That's what 90% of this thread is. You and I both know that if you simply swapped on a Honda badge, pretty much all Honda fanatics both new and old would be lining up at dealerships to buy them with long wait lists and would pay full MSRP and would not be able to stop talking about how great they are. Because it's Hyundai though, it gets the same incredibly tired "it's still just a hyundai" and other type arguments. As if Hondas are sooooo much better these days?
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Old January 13th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #33
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Also no one has stated Honda is above and beyond everyone else. Also I think everyone knows that the 90's accent days are behind as every car company has evolved since then. I think you are beating a dead horse.
Hyundai has evolved tremendously over the past 10 years. How has Honda?
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Old January 13th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #34
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Hyundai did put together a decent platform to work off of. But the accord is in no comparison to the Hyundai. The Accord has absolutely no performance in mind during production/development.

Honda's primary goal is fuel efficiency, smaller displacement, without sacrificing power.


SOHC V6 Honda Accord makes as much power as alot of DOHC V6 out there. If Honda can develope this kind of engine, with lesser moving mechanical components and still yield the same power, You ought to bow to that.
I agree. The Honda SOHC V6 engines are nice, simple, elegant designs that make decent power and are pretty efficient.

But they're boring.

And that's the problem.

There's nothing about any Honda these days that gets me even the least bit excited. Honda has not come out with anything truly "new" in over 20 years now! Every car and every design they have is the same thing as before just iterated one step further. Even if it still works well, and it does, SOHC VTEC dates back to the early-90's Honda Civic for crying out loud!

Give me something that inspires me! WTF ever happened to the "Power of Dreams". Hondas put me straight to sleep these days. Just checked out the new 2012 CR-V. Same boring 4-cylinder engine. Same boring 5-speed automatic. Still doesn't look all that great. Still no optional engine. No V6. No turbo-diesel. No turbo-petrol. No nothing. Even Toyota has far more interesting and exciting cars. Honda used to be considered the "Japanese BMW" before. Infiniti stole that right from them and Honda didn't even put up a fight. No new NSX. No new S2000. No RWD cars. No nothing. Just the same old stuff iterated over and over again.

Sorry but even if it's a GOOD car, and plenty of Hondas are, I'm looking for more than that these days. If it wasn't for my wife and her own flavor of brand snobbery, I could easily consider more than a few Hyundais these days. But nothing from Honda even gets the slightest pulse elevation from me.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 01:45 PM   #35
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No need to state the obvious. That's what 90% of this thread is. You and I both know that if you simply swapped on a Honda badge, pretty much all Honda fanatics both new and old would be lining up at dealerships to buy them with long wait lists and would pay full MSRP and would not be able to stop talking about how great they are. Because it's Hyundai though, it gets the same incredibly tired "it's still just a hyundai" and other type arguments. As if Hondas are sooooo much better these days?
Buddy what are u talking about ??? The new accord is blah looking 2013 & the new 9th gen si looks like a Camry. Sales drop to the floor for 9th gen si...they are both dissapproved from an alleged fanatic right here. Nobody ever said Honda was the best. Hondas resume has beautiful history & Hyundai genesis resume is horrible. Not even gonna say Hyundai resume, cause that will be straight up game over lol
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Old January 13th, 2012, 02:38 PM   #36
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Gen coupe vs Civic SI modded: Looks to me like the Genesis walked
Si vs Genesis 3.8 MT - YouTube

Just so you know, the Supercharged Cobalt had 205hp. The turbo had 260.

Gen coupe vs Camaro/Mustang: Beat the camaro
V-6 Coupe Drag Race! - Mustang vs Genesis Coupe 3.8 vs Camaro RS vs Challenger SE - YouTube


Its no question that the Gen V6 will beat the Gen 2.0t stock for stock. It almost seems that is what you are elluding to in your second to last sentence, that the 2.0 will beat the 3.8 stock for stock. The 3.8 is not slow by any means and hangs tough with the Mustang and Camaro that boast the same power. Your argument seems a little biased because the car is a Hyundai in my opinion. Because if you're going to say the 3.8 is slow, then you have to say the Mustang and Camaro and slow, and I don't see you saying that.
Ok so my bad on cobalt ss mix up, the one I smoked claimed 260hp, so I got confused (sorry I don't really follow cobalts). Now when I mentioned the stock genesis race, I meant the newer ones that didn't drop yet. Don't be surprised if the 4banger takes the 6 with no work or little. I watched the vid with si btw and not impressed, u just literally kill confirmed my statement for me (all the mw3 peeps know what I mean lol)..that they are Overated...why can't the big 3.8 v6 pull away from the lil 2.0 ???? They are both not stock either btw...
Argument is def biased based of hyundai correct! They have proven to release overrated cars duh lol. Like I said I hope Hyundai proves me wrong, because they will sell less than the small total of 35,000 genesis from 09 till now 2012 if they come out with more weak cars.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #37
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Buddy what are u talking about ??? The new accord is blah looking 2013 & the new 9th gen si looks like a Camry. Sales drop to the floor for 9th gen si...they are both dissapproved from an alleged fanatic right here. Nobody ever said Honda was the best. Hondas resume has beautiful history & Hyundai genesis resume is horrible. Not even gonna say Hyundai resume, cause that will be straight up game over lol
If you think the new Hondas are so awful, then why are you bagging on Hyundai so bad? Talking about cars, things you drive, not brand history. Compare Honda's lineup of actual cars to Hyundais, and it's instant game over for Honda imho. Everything Honda fanbois have wanted and been begging for over the past decade, Hyundai has. RWD, turbo, bigger NA engines, V8's, aftermarket support, 6MTs, manuamatic autos.

Hyundai and the Genesis don't deserve any credit? BS man.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:24 PM   #38
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u just literally kill confirmed my statement for me (all the mw3 peeps know what I mean lol)..that they are Overated...why can't the big 3.8 v6 pull away from the lil 2.0 ???? They are both not stock either btw...
Civic Si's run high-14's stock tops.
3.8 Genesis 6MT or 6AT run high-13's stock.

So the Civic obviously had a whole LOT of work done to it, plain and simple. Both stock, the Genesis will be pulling many many car-lengths.

Edit: From listening to the video, it's pretty obvious that the Si driver was pretty good too. Almost no audible gap in power application between gear shift. Very fast clean shifts. Was the Genesis driver as good?
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #39
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I will, after you buy my car
K, you buy me one I'll buy you one.

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go buy one and tell us how you feel after
I will feel the same way, I rather have a GC, or Equius then a civic, Accord, Camry or Corolla.

There is a guy on my Acura forum had a 2010 TL bought a Hyundai Gensius 4.6 and did a full out breakdown/comparison of the car. If you want me to link it to you I can, because this guy has driven/owned both and not just going off of a brand.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #40
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There is a guy on my Acura forum had a 2010 TL bought a Hyundai Gensius 4.6 and did a full out breakdown/comparison of the car. If you want me to link it to you I can, because this guy has driven/owned both and not just going off of a brand.
And there's a guy on Bimmerfest who has both an F10 (2011) 535i and a Genesis 4.6 as well. While he feels the BMW is the "better" car overall, he still thinks the Genesis is 90% as good for a whole lot less money, and is wondering if he's going to keep buying BMWs. He feels that the Genesis is "enough".
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #41
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I'm not here to bash Acura. I owned 3 Acura’s in a row. I'm an Acura fan. I'm here to give a bit of a high level amateur review/comparison of my experiences with the 2 cars because I like you guys. You’re feisty, smart and savvy.

I bought the TL in Portland, OR, where the roads are much better than here in LA for the most part. As much as I enjoyed the SH-AWD, the ride just was untenable here in LA where the roads have got to be among the worse in the world. I imagine the ancient Romans had better roads. My 2010 was the most fun I’ve had driving a car….when I was on goods roads. And I’ll go to my grave believing that the SH-AWD TL saved my life one really bad rainy day in Portland when a driver in the next lane did something profanely stupid.

But the ride and lack of sound proofing really became a cause for anxiety down here. I found myself going miles out of my way to avoid certain roads. I was constantly slowing down the gently go over ruts. I could hear and feel everything.

It was hard to trade in the TL (not to mention the 7k I lost over 11 months). I tried to get a 2012 but the dealers wouldn’t budge off of list for a Tech/Advance. So I bought a 2012 4.6 Genesis for $39,500 not including taxes, etc. $6,000 off of list.

The Genesis is rock solid. Really quiet. No rattles or squeaks. Every TL I’ve owned had
rattles. The 2005 was the worse and the only reason I didn’t lemon law it was because Santa Monica Acura did a great job of fixing everything albeit after many trips. The 2010 developed 2 significant rattle by 4k.

As stated the TL is just a great car to toss around. Can’t d that with the Genesis (even the R-spec)…too much body roll.

The TL air conditioner is the best I’ve ever experienced. I don’t know how they do it. Instant on from a cold start. The Genesis takes 2-3 minutes to get to cold air.

The back-up camera in the TL is far superior.

I love the buttons on the TL…simple direct communication…eyes on the road… whereas the Genesis has the DIS knob.

The ELS is crystal clear and rightfully honored as one of the best OEM systems. The Lexicon is more immersive.

The TAU engine is a jewel but lacks the breath taking dynamics, imo, of the 3.7. There is just something about Acura engines that is addictive to me.

The Genesis 8 speed is butter smooth and I never sense it’s hunting a gear. But again I don’t drive it like a TL.

I hate to say it but push came to shove I’d have to give Genesis the gold star for quality of materials and interior construction. It’s beautifully done.

Genesis lack shift paddles and the shifter is kind of like something from a Lexus.

Now here are the key competitive differences in favor of Genesis imo:
Adaptive cruise control – works as advertised but is unnerving in the way the car will accelerate to hard and brakes to hard when near of far from other cars.

Parking sensors – helps so much when one can’t really gauge the distance from the front end and a wall.

A steering wheel that goes up and down electronically. Silly thing I know but I got tired of adjusting the wheel manually every time I entered/exited the TL.

Lane departure, electronic brake, and the fact I can call by name any contact on my list (1100) while the TL only allows 10 voice tags.

The TPS is superior on the TL.

And finally for now…it is quite different going to a Hyundai dealership to do anything. Fortunately the car has been trouble free for 4 months now. Reliability is yet to be determined.

Gotta go to work. Best to you all.

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You can for sure include some of the best Teutonic V8 midsize sedans in the "easily rivals" column.


In my opinion if the TL is a great value offer in the luxury sedan market, the Genesis is simply spectacular....

When I test drove the 5.0 it had absolutely everything for 46K (only option were sport tires and wheels for 1800).

The salesman proudly did show me some papers that were stating that a similar equipped 550i would require well north of 70K.
And he had a couple of 5 Series in the used car lot (I think two 530) just to dispel the myth that "no serious luxury car shopper would look at the Genesis".


Fit and finish is superb and the Thau V8 engine is creamy smooth.....it lacks the low end grunt of the BMW turbo but I think is smoother across the board.

The only options you could get on a 550 more than a Genesis are really trivial (head up display, night vision and stuff like that).

Granted, I still like the BMW better......more aggressive look and a sportier demenaour (the adjustable suspension setup is great)...but I found the ride in the Hyundai a more "puffy" and cushy...some people may prefer it.


Just different character (the Genesis tries to hit the spot between a 5 Series and an E Class) but not inferior by any stretch of imagination....

Would a Genesis attract a 550 shopper?? I doubt it, no brand recognition and the BMW turbo V8 is addicting but the potential 528-535, E 350 and Audi A6 shopper should do himself/herself a favor and at least check on the V8 Genesis....
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Thanks everyone. I xan tell you that the Acura forum is much more interesting and fun than the Genesis forum.

Winston - When I was shopping back during the scarcity period, no dealer would engage in negotiations with me. Therefore I never drove the 2012. I had 2005 TL for 6 years and didn't want to go back to a FWD again. I did want to own a V-8 again.

cp3117 - I swore I'd never buy another American car again because of the atrocities Detroit foisted on loyal Americans in the 70's and 80's. Just my opinion and resentment. So I never considered a Ford.

Linmk2 - I drove a 2011 Genesis and hated the ride. Discovered that Hyundai ships their cars at 42 psi tire pressure and the dealers leave it as is. Plus the 2011 had low grade Dunlops. The 2012 has had the suspension tweaked and now has better OEM tires. I drove it and found it suited my needs in LA.

Again, though...the SH-AWD (the only 4 gen I'm familiar with) is a wonderful car and is superior to the Genesis in many ways. Just the way it handles and responds would be enough. but even the electronics, although sparse, are 1st class.

But having said that, the Genesis is a solid, well built car with gagetry galore. I don't think it's like a Caddy. Haven't driven one in years. The Genesis is interesting in that it's firm (people complain about it on the forums) but it is also a little floaty. The car has a top sway to it. When I switched lanes in the TL it was womp, womp...like on magnets. With the Genesis its womp, womp, amd then a little sea sickness from the subtle but noticable sway.

It took me a month before I felt comfortable with the Genesis. It often felt like it could get away from me.

This decision was driven by the conditioin of the roads in LA and how nervous I would get from the thudding and cracking I would feel and hear in the 2010. I wanted serenity more than cutting edge thrills. The Genesis does that. And the V-8 is fun. It leaves cars in the dust. I can only imagine what the 5.0 must do.

I only wish Acura would get it together and offer the SH-AWD with sound proofing and advanced electronics like the Genesis. I'll be looking hard at the 5G. I'm an Acura guy at heart. Had a 12 year old 1994 that was a great fun car when I was down and out. Had a 2005 for 6 years that never let me down. I like the idea of the underdog company that is the one of the better kept secrets on the streets (the TL). But after looking at what the Genesis offered for the same money, it was hard to justify a 2012....unless I lived somewhere where I could really enjoy the SH-AWD and all that the car is capable of.

Seismic - The roads here...I mean I don't think anybody here can really envision how bad they are. Sometimes I'm tempted to take pics for proof. Hell, even when the repair a pot hole they leave a 6 inch mound.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #42
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If you think the new Hondas are so awful, then why are you bagging on Hyundai so bad? Talking about cars, things you drive, not brand history. Compare Honda's lineup of actual cars to Hyundais, and it's instant game over for Honda imho. Everything Honda fanbois have wanted and been begging for over the past decade, Hyundai has. RWD, turbo, bigger NA engines, V8's, aftermarket support, 6MTs, manuamatic autos.

Hyundai and the Genesis don't deserve any credit? BS man.
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If you think the new Hondas are so awful, then why are you bagging on Hyundai so bad? Talking about cars, things you drive, not brand history. Compare Honda's lineup of actual cars to Hyundais, and it's instant game over for Honda imho. Everything Honda fanbois have wanted and been begging for over the past decade, Hyundai has. RWD, turbo, bigger NA engines, V8's, aftermarket support, 6MTs, manuamatic autos.

Hyundai and the Genesis don't deserve any credit? BS man.
Because Hyundai has always been bad...what the tiburon was a force to be reckon with :lol: these 2 new genesis added to the lineup and now u hyundai fanboys dont know how to act. How are u gonna compare Hondas lineup to Hyundai, are u being for real right now ?...what a joke this thread is full of Lols. Real Honda enthusiast don't beg for ish, we take what we have & make much more power from it. But it's Hyundai fan boys who beg for Honda to have all this n that luxury, more buttons, grandma bs and then soften up the company thennnnn be a hypocrite & complain needs more performance when company changes makes no sense...for the past decade Honda has been major competitor for all in performance areas. This game u speak of will never be over for Honda, the doors just keep opening more n more...
Ps i never said the new hondas are awful all i said was "looks" we're blah n resembles a Camry. Didn't touch performance area silly. Im guessing u were one of hondas fanboy before cause u do have "Vtec" in ur username and u musta went AWOL lol

But on a serious note the v6 3.8 does deserve some credit...but still Overrated.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #43
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And ur a honda fan bay.. if I could get a 3g tl I would no doubt no one in this thread has a hyundai so calm down there just stating there opinion don't get worked up

How u guys gonna knock a car that none of u even have yea hyundai did suvk bak in the day but there stepping there **** up now

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Old January 13th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #44
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jiga, check your tone. This is a debate, not a flame war with personal attacks. Okie dokie?
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Old January 13th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #45
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They are slow for the power rating they have. I think we can all agree to that.

I'd take a BOSS302 mustang over a Hyundai Genesis.

No doubt. I'd even take the GT over the Genesis. But the Mustang V6?... That would be a tough sale.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #46
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Because Hyundai has always been bad...what the tiburon was a force to be reckon with :lol:
Bro it's 2012, not 2002, or 1992.

Wake up.

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these 2 new genesis added to the lineup and now u hyundai fanboys dont know how to act. How are u gonna compare Hondas lineup to Hyundai, are u being for real right now ?...what a joke this thread is full of Lols.
Lols for sure, although not the type you're thinking.

Last I checked the Genesis wasn't the only good car in Hyundai's lineup.

The Elantra is the top-rated small car in Consumer Reports, ahead of the Civic.
The Sonata is the #2 rated family car right behind the Altima, and ahead of the Accord.
The Genesis 3.8 sedan is the top rated upscale sedan, ahead of the Acura TL.
The Genesis V8 is the top rated luxury sedan, ahead of all of the Germans.

Their SUVs including their Kia brand are rated pretty highly too, commonly above the Hondas.

uhh yeah, you can't compare Hyundai and Honda's lineup. It's quite obvious to me that one of these companies has been trying really hard and working their butts off to come out with a lot of new cool stuff, and that the other is just sitting on their butts doing nothing trying to live off the reputation from 20 years ago.

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Real Honda enthusiast don't beg for ish, we take what we have & make much more power from it. But it's Hyundai fan boys who beg for Honda to have all this n that luxury, more buttons, grandma bs and then soften up the company thennnnn be a hypocrite & complain needs more performance when company changes makes no sense...
I'm one of the original founders of this forum, smarty pants.

Over 10 years and 15,000 posts later, now you're telling me that all the HONDA FANS who posted here who were wanting RWD and more 6MT trannys or turbos or bigger NA V6 engines or V8 engines weren't "real" Honda enthusiasts but were really Hyundai fanboys all along.

Ok.

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for the past decade Honda has been major competitor for all in performance areas.


You mean the decade in which the NSX was discontinued without a replacement, and the decade in which the S2000 was discontinued without a replacement? What is Honda's answer to the Nissan GT-R? What is Honda's answer to the Lexus IS-F? Wait, what's Honda's answer to the Genesis Coupe?


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This game u speak of will never be over for Honda, the doors just keep opening more n more...
Ps i never said the new hondas are awful all i said was "looks" we're blah n resembles a Camry. Didn't touch performance area silly. Im guessing u were one of hondas fanboy before cause u do have "Vtec" in ur username and u musta went AWOL lol

But on a serious note the v6 3.8 does deserve some credit...but still Overrated.
But a Civic Si running a full second slower in the 1/4 mile and that's a dog around town unless you're flogging in VTEC all the time isn't? For the same price as a Genesis?

I'm waiting for Honda to build something that I actually find inspiring enough to buy and that impresses me. Continually recycling or iterating 20 year old technology over and over just doesn't do it for me. Hyundai on the other hand is very impressive. Only brand snobs like my wife or some people in this thread wouldn't recognize that Hyundai is building some truly impressive cars. Even the brand snobs know this, but just won't admit it. Again, replace the Hyundai badge with the beloved Honda "H" and slap a VTEC sticker on it, and the Honda fans both new and old would be all over these cars like crazy, and don't even try to deny it.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #47
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I will feel the same way, I rather have a GC, or Equius then a civic, Accord, Camry or Corolla.

There is a guy on my Acura forum had a 2010 TL bought a Hyundai Gensius 4.6 and did a full out breakdown/comparison of the car. If you want me to link it to you I can, because this guy has driven/owned both and not just going off of a brand.
Just to make it even better, he actually traded his 2010 Acura TL in FOR the Genesis sedan.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #48
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Ok so my bad on cobalt ss mix up, the one I smoked claimed 260hp, so I got confused (sorry I don't really follow cobalts). Now when I mentioned the stock genesis race, I meant the newer ones that didn't drop yet. Don't be surprised if the 4banger takes the 6 with no work or little. I watched the vid with si btw and not impressed, u just literally kill confirmed my statement for me (all the mw3 peeps know what I mean lol)..that they are Overated...why can't the big 3.8 v6 pull away from the lil 2.0 ???? They are both not stock either btw...
So what you're saying is that out of two Genesis coupes, the car (same body, same everything, slight difference in weight) that has 74 less horsepower will win in a race? (The 2.0 also has -20 lb.ft of torque)

That is like saying that out of a race between a V6 Accord coupe and a 4cyl Accord coupe, the 4cyl would win (minus the torque). Are you alright?

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Civic Si's run high-14's stock tops.
3.8 Genesis 6MT or 6AT run high-13's stock.

So the Civic obviously had a whole LOT of work done to it, plain and simple. Both stock, the Genesis will be pulling many many car-lengths.

Edit: From listening to the video, it's pretty obvious that the Si driver was pretty good too. Almost no audible gap in power application between gear shift. Very fast clean shifts. Was the Genesis driver as good?
+1 that was my whole point of posting the video. There were many factors that made the Civic superior and yet it still lost.
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No doubt. I'd even take the GT over the Genesis. But the Mustang V6?... That would be a tough sale.
+1!

Anyone would take a track bred Boss Mustang over a milder V6 coupe. As well as a GT. However, if we actually talk about comparable cars, we'd be talking V6 Mustang vs. Genesis 3.8... And in that case, is the Genesis really not worthy of ownership?
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Old January 14th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #49
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Old January 16th, 2012, 09:21 AM   #50
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Hyundai has evolved tremendously over the past 10 years. How has Honda?
I agree with that. Honda evolved tremendously in the 1980's and 1990's. I believe Hyundai is doing the same thing now that Honda did back in the day.
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Old January 17th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #51
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Again, replace the Hyundai badge with the beloved Honda "H" and slap a VTEC sticker on it, and the Honda fans both new and old would be all over these cars like crazy, and don't even try to deny it.
I agree with this. You can't argue with what Hyundai has been doing. I was once an "it's still a Hyundai-nian" (Hyundaigan? ) but have now seen that their cars are actually very competitive in almost all markets. They have the Genesis coupe for performance/track, the Genesis sedan for luxury, the Equus for even more luxury, the Sonata (which is fast btw), and others as well. I will throw in the towel here and say recently, Hyundai has impressed me more than Honda also.

Honda has disappointed us for awhile now. The new SI was a disappointment. The new Accord looks pretty good I think (as long as they make a few changes), but is still FWD. They are STILL using SOHC technology (although they compete with some of the stock DOHC motors when modded) and are just now utilizing DI (direct injection) while other brands have been for some time now. Honda is behind at this point imo. They JUST introduced a 6AT while cars are now on 7-8 speeds.

Honda strayed from its performance agenda and have been content with making cars for the masses for quite some time. There is not one 'performance oriented' car in their lineup. The Accord coupe should perform very nicely, but it's not 'performance oriented' like the S2K or NSX was. They need to bring back the S2K with the RDX 2.3L turbo motor. That would sell like condoms in a Hostel. Everything us Honda people have wanted for Honda to come out with recently, Hyundai has. It has a Hyundai badge, but the GC looks a good bit better and more aggressive than the Accord imo. It didn't perform much better (if at all) in a straight line than the 8G 6MT, but with the large bump in power from 2012-2013 I think it will outperform the 9G Accord, despite their "new and improved" SOHC J series.

I love Honda, don't get me wrong. But like SteVTEC has said, Hyundai has REALLY been moving the industry. They are doing what other companies do cheaper. While BMW/Mercedes may do it slightly better, it's hard to justify the price difference when many people are looking to spend less. ESPECIALLY since the new wave is "more is less."

Honda needs to step it up, plain and simple. This is my opinion though. There are many others out there with their own opinions as well, which makes threads like this great because we can all express how we feel about certain topics. Everyone has different opinions, which leads to more discussion and further analysis, and more fun!
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Old January 19th, 2012, 03:04 AM   #52
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I agree! Always enjoy a Steve thread.
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Old January 19th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #53
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I agree with this. You can't argue with what Hyundai has been doing. I was once an "it's still a Hyundai-nian" (Hyundaigan? ) but have now seen that their cars are actually very competitive in almost all markets. They have the Genesis coupe for performance/track, the Genesis sedan for luxury, the Equus for even more luxury, the Sonata (which is fast btw), and others as well. I will throw in the towel here and say recently, Hyundai has impressed me more than Honda also.

Honda has disappointed us for awhile now. The new SI was a disappointment. The new Accord looks pretty good I think (as long as they make a few changes), but is still FWD. They are STILL using SOHC technology (although they compete with some of the stock DOHC motors when modded) and are just now utilizing DI (direct injection) while other brands have been for some time now. Honda is behind at this point imo. They JUST introduced a 6AT while cars are now on 7-8 speeds.

Honda strayed from its performance agenda and have been content with making cars for the masses for quite some time. There is not one 'performance oriented' car in their lineup. The Accord coupe should perform very nicely, but it's not 'performance oriented' like the S2K or NSX was. They need to bring back the S2K with the RDX 2.3L turbo motor. That would sell like condoms in a Hostel. Everything us Honda people have wanted for Honda to come out with recently, Hyundai has. It has a Hyundai badge, but the GC looks a good bit better and more aggressive than the Accord imo. It didn't perform much better (if at all) in a straight line than the 8G 6MT, but with the large bump in power from 2012-2013 I think it will outperform the 9G Accord, despite their "new and improved" SOHC J series.

I love Honda, don't get me wrong. But like SteVTEC has said, Hyundai has REALLY been moving the industry. They are doing what other companies do cheaper. While BMW/Mercedes may do it slightly better, it's hard to justify the price difference when many people are looking to spend less. ESPECIALLY since the new wave is "more is less."

Honda needs to step it up, plain and simple. This is my opinion though. There are many others out there with their own opinions as well, which makes threads like this great because we can all express how we feel about certain topics. Everyone has different opinions, which leads to more discussion and further analysis, and more fun!


Hyundai has improved drastically, we all agree. They are on a completely different playing field than they were in.

What's wrong with the new SI? It makes good power for what it is, and it's pretty damn fast.

There's nothing wrong with using SOHC technology. That's not old technology. DOHC is old technology. They had DOHC during the C-motor days, ZC etc. They continue to improve off of the SOHC platform and continue to make a powerful fuel efficient vehicle. What other car manufacturer at Honda's price range can you get the best of both worlds? Fuel efficiency, and power?

Also about the direct injection comment. Honda made a smart decision to stay out of that market until they mastered the technology. Most other manufacturers that have Direct injection make really crappy engines. Volkswagon, etc have valve sticking problems, carbon sludge, etc because the cylinder heads do not get cleaned by the fuel which non direct injection engines provided. Honda did not release their vehicles with direct injection until all they addressed issues with DI that most other manufacturers have a problem with. On a business standpoint, Honda is very smart.

The difference between Honda and other manufacturers. Honda builds car for fuel economy, without sacrificing power. THey also build cars with the intention that the cars won't be returning for service and warranty work. Other manufacturers build cars with the intent to sell them in volume, and have them come back for service.

Just wait, when Honda's direct injection engines are in full blown production. You'll see that the compression ratio can be raised by quite a bit, and horse power naturally aspirated on a SOHC will sky rocket.

They may seem late with technology to the general consumer market, but they come in late with full r&d behind the products they release.

The only fail Honda has in my books is the 01-05 1.7L SOHC civic engines and the 5 cylinders out of the vigor.

Other than that, the only problems I see are all caused by emissions and smog related components that make engines fail. I blame the tree huggers for that, not Honda.
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Old January 19th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #54
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Old January 19th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #55
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Hyundai has improved drastically, we all agree. They are on a completely different playing field than they were in.

What's wrong with the new SI? It makes good power for what it is, and it's pretty damn fast.

There's nothing wrong with using SOHC technology. That's not old technology. DOHC is old technology. They had DOHC during the C-motor days, ZC etc. They continue to improve off of the SOHC platform and continue to make a powerful fuel efficient vehicle. What other car manufacturer at Honda's price range can you get the best of both worlds? Fuel efficiency, and power?

Also about the direct injection comment. Honda made a smart decision to stay out of that market until they mastered the technology. Most other manufacturers that have Direct injection make really crappy engines. Volkswagon, etc have valve sticking problems, carbon sludge, etc because the cylinder heads do not get cleaned by the fuel which non direct injection engines provided. Honda did not release their vehicles with direct injection until all they addressed issues with DI that most other manufacturers have a problem with. On a business standpoint, Honda is very smart.

The difference between Honda and other manufacturers. Honda builds car for fuel economy, without sacrificing power. THey also build cars with the intention that the cars won't be returning for service and warranty work. Other manufacturers build cars with the intent to sell them in volume, and have them come back for service.

Just wait, when Honda's direct injection engines are in full blown production. You'll see that the compression ratio can be raised by quite a bit, and horse power naturally aspirated on a SOHC will sky rocket.

They may seem late with technology to the general consumer market, but they come in late with full r&d behind the products they release.

The only fail Honda has in my books is the 01-05 1.7L SOHC civic engines and the 5 cylinders out of the vigor.

Other than that, the only problems I see are all caused by emissions and smog related components that make engines fail. I blame the tree huggers for that, not Honda.
While I do agree to an extent, Kiet, SOHC technology is inferior to DOHC no matter which way you look at it. The fact that Honda can make similar power out of a SOHC is impressive, but that doesn't mean the technology isn't inferior.

I wasn't trying to bash Honda, but I think we can all agree the folks over there really haven't stepped up to the plate (recently) and put any enthusiast cars out in quite some time. I think they've tried to 'remodel' the Accord as its primary 'performance-oriented' car, but that's really a stretch.

What they need to do is come out with something RWDimplementing the RDX turbo motor. No one would care if it's DI or not, as long as it looks pretty good. They need something to compete with the Genesis/G37/335.

What I don't think Honda realizes (or they do but just won't do it!) is that they need to implement some sort of performance line. Not even a line, just a coupe/sedan combination with performance in mind. Their sales have decreased since they discontinued the S and NSX. The only thing I see helping them is that they are now offering the '13 Accord in hybrid form. Although I don't think the 7.5G V6 hybrid did all that well....

Oh, and in terms of the new SI...come on. It doesn't look as aggressive as the 8G, its acceleration didn't increase, I'm pretty sure the handling didn't either (but don't quote me). It's still a low 15-high 14 second car in stock form. It's just an unappealing car as of now. We know it, they know it. They only thing it has going for it is more torque. Even that has its drawbacks because now the "SI" guys can't rev. It revs to 7K just like the Accord and takes out the "OMG VTEC" thrill. It's just a 'blah' car with no improvement on its already mediocre performance.
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Old January 19th, 2012, 12:27 PM   #56
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And the automatic transmissions LOL
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Old January 20th, 2012, 11:36 AM   #57
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Hyundai has improved drastically, we all agree. They are on a completely different playing field than they were in.

What's wrong with the new SI? It makes good power for what it is, and it's pretty damn fast.
Oh nothing. I agree that it's perfectly fine. Nobody really "needs" a car faster than that, except that...

It will get spanked by the Genesis Coupe.
It will get spanked by the VW GTI.
It will get spanked by the Subaru WRX.
It will get spanked by the Mazda Speed3.
It will get spanked by the BMW 135i, and probably the 128i too.
It will get spanked by... a Toyota Camry V6

It's among the slowest of all the sport compact cars out today. While it does get pretty decent fuel mileage compared to all of those, it still isn't the best.

Civic Si 2.4L: 22/31 mpg
VW GTI 2.0TFSI: 24/33 mpg

The VW isn't a whole lot faster in a straight line, but its drive in most street conditions is superior thanks to a ton of torque. And since it's a turbo and a VW, aftermarket support is insane and these can be made basically as fast as you'd want them to go.

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There's nothing wrong with using SOHC technology. That's not old technology. DOHC is old technology. They had DOHC during the C-motor days, ZC etc. They continue to improve off of the SOHC platform and continue to make a powerful fuel efficient vehicle. What other car manufacturer at Honda's price range can you get the best of both worlds? Fuel efficiency, and power?
Pretty much anybody?

Acura TL FWD 3.5L: 18/26 mpg
Lexus GS350 RWD: 19/26 mpg
Infiniti M37: 19/27 mpg
Genesis 3.8L: 19/29 mpg
BMW 535i RWD: 20/30 mpg

All of these cars are more powerful than, faster than, and get better fuel mileage than the Acura TL does. You're getting pretty good pricing on the Acuras and that's it. They're nothing more than bargain basement dressed up Honda Accord "luxury" cars, and are hardly performance OR even fuel efficiency leaders.

I'm sorry, but SOHC and even SOHC VTEC is "yestertech" in today's world. With incredibly demanding fuel economy and emissions standards to meet, and cars getting larger with customers simultaneously demanding more power and performance, DOHC is clearly superior since you can independently vary both intake and exhaust valve timing, vary amount of overlap, optimize power, torque, emissions, efficiency, etc. SOHC is quite limiting. And a number of manufacturers now have even taken VVT systems to the next level with continuously variable valve LIFT. BMW started with its Valvetronic system, and then Nissan with its Neo-VVL engines. Loafing around on the highway with the throttle plate almost completely closed creates unnecessary pumping losses on the Honda/Acura SOHC engines, which the Nissan and BMW don't have. And they both get better highway mileage. It still boggles my mind that Honda will go all out with DOHC i-VTEC on their 4-cylinder engines, but sticks with "yestertech" SOHC on their V6 engines and premium luxury cars. WTFF??? (what the freaking F???) Honda is also one of the last manufacturers to be requiring TIMING BELT changes. Pretty much everybody has moved on to lifelong timing chains.

Honda is not even trying. They're not leading in power, and they're not leading in fuel efficiency, and they get out-specified by just about everybody. Even Hyundai. It must be really tough days in the Honda spinmeister department.

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Also about the direct injection comment. Honda made a smart decision to stay out of that market until they mastered the technology. Most other manufacturers that have Direct injection make really crappy engines. Volkswagon, etc have valve sticking problems, carbon sludge, etc because the cylinder heads do not get cleaned by the fuel which non direct injection engines provided. Honda did not release their vehicles with direct injection until all they addressed issues with DI that most other manufacturers have a problem with. On a business standpoint, Honda is very smart.
Because on an engineering, R&D, technical advancement, and intellectual property standpoint they have failed and fallen behind just about everybody else. You're dead flat wrong. Lexus has this problem licked, because they use "dual injection" (both port and direct) in their 2GR-FSE 3.5L engine used in the IS350 and GS350. Direct injection is actually inferior to port injection in some areas of an engine's load/RPM map, so Lexus sticks with port in these ranges, which also resolves the intake port carbon deposit buildup issue. In other load ranges they use a mix of both port and direct injection, and then in others it's straight direct injection. I have the SAE white paper on the Lexus 2GR-FSE engine and it's quite an interesting read. And of course Toyota has patented the shat out of this, which locks Honda and others out of using that strategy for minimizing IVD issues (intake valve deposit). It's a costly approach, but it works well and the price can be justified on premium products.

Full disclosure: My current ride is a 2011 BMW 335cic, with the 3.0L N55 direct injected turbocharged Valvetronic engine, so I've been surfing the BMW boards. While there are IVD issues on these engines, they seem to be a lot more mild than with VW. I don't think VW should ever be used as a ponit of comparison as far as how reliable a technology can be made or operate, because VW has a long track record of not really caring about reliability, especially on their VW level products. There are some high mileage BMW 335i's, both N54 (twin turbo, no Valvetronic) and while IVD issues have been seen, it's nothing like the VW issues. BMW runs their own special blends of synthetic oil, and I think they've paid a bit more attention to PCV design and other things than VW has. If you have issues, BMW can walnut shell blast your intake out for $600, or less than the timing belt replacement cost including labor on a Honda SOHC J-series V6.



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The difference between Honda and other manufacturers. Honda builds car for fuel economy, without sacrificing power.
And the evidence has shown that this is not the case. They do what they can do with SOHC, but they're behind on both power and fuel economy which has directly to do with lagging in a number of key technological areas. In fact Honda may even be locked out of advancing their engine tech, due to the intellectual property already being owned and covered by their competitors. Short of licensing which they're not going to do, the only choice might be to wait out the patents until they expire. This has happened before.


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THey also build cars with the intention that the cars won't be returning for service and warranty work. Other manufacturers build cars with the intent to sell them in volume, and have them come back for service.
Well you have a good point here. If you want a rock solid engine that's going to give you the very best chance of not needing any work done to get to high mileage, it doesn't get much better than Honda these days. Nice boring and reliable engines, that are also lacking the latest technologies and thus are neither power nor efficiency leaders either.

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Just wait, when Honda's direct injection engines are in full blown production. You'll see that the compression ratio can be raised by quite a bit, and horse power naturally aspirated on a SOHC will sky rocket.

They may seem late with technology to the general consumer market, but they come in late with full r&d behind the products they release.
At this point, so many other manfuacturers have blazed so many other trails, that I really don't see what "original" idea Honda is going to be able to do or deploy without it looking like they've simply copied someone else or refined what someone else has done just a little bit further. It will merely get them back in the game. And I think Honda is fundamentally limited with the J-series block because it ends up being pretty under-square at 3.7L, which limits valve area. Even with VTEC, they're needing 3.7L to get 300hp out of the block whereas the others are able to do it with only 3.5L. Maybe the reason they're holding back is because they know they'd still come up short even if they went all out?

As the years pass I always think Honda has something up their sleeve that they're waiting to come out with to WOW everybody, except that it never happens. We've heard talk of a mid-sized RWD platform that got shelved. We've heard all this noise about clean diesels for the US including V6 versions, which have yet to materialize. Honda promised us a turbodiesel Accord years ago which never happened. They finally do something different with the RDX turbo engine, but its a "yestertech" port injected one with a 1990's 8:1 compression ratio that has neither the power, efficiency, or response of the much more advanced German FI engines. It makes me wonder WTF Honda has really been doing all these years? Like most car manufacturers, Honda is filled with brilliant engineers that simply need to be unleashed and "ALLOWED" to come out with super cool and head-turning products. I feel that Honda is now the "new GM" as far as products.

After Honda came out with the Accord Crosstour and the Acura ZDX is when I completely lost all hope.

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The only fail Honda has in my books is the 01-05 1.7L SOHC civic engines and the 5 cylinders out of the vigor.

Other than that, the only problems I see are all caused by emissions and smog related components that make engines fail. I blame the tree huggers for that, not Honda.
Consumer Reports would disagree with you. The latest 9th generation Civic is the best example. While it's just as good if not better than the previous Civic, and perhaps the "best Civic ever", the car is no longer even recommended by Consumer Reports. It's not that it's a bad car or worse than previous generations, it's just that almost ALL of the small cars from other manufacturers have evolved so much and have kept raising the bar higher and higher, all while Honda has basically stood still. What's the top-rated small car? The Hyundai Elantra. And I think it even gets better gas mileage than the Civic does too.


Is waiting for the soul and spirit of Honda of the 1990s to return.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #58
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As the years pass I always think Honda has something up their sleeve that they're waiting to come out with to WOW everybody, except that it never happens. We've heard talk of a mid-sized RWD platform that got shelved. We've heard all this noise about clean diesels for the US including V6 versions, which have yet to materialize. Honda promised us a turbodiesel Accord years ago which never happened. They finally do something different with the RDX turbo engine, but its a "yestertech" port injected one with a 1990's 8:1 compression ratio that has neither the power, efficiency, or response of the much more advanced German FI engines. It makes me wonder WTF Honda has really been doing all these years? Like most car manufacturers, Honda is filled with brilliant engineers that simply need to be unleashed and "ALLOWED" to come out with super cool and head-turning products. I feel that Honda is now the "new GM" as far as products.

After Honda came out with the Accord Crosstour and the Acura ZDX is when I completely lost all hope.
This.



Quote:
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Is waiting for the soul and spirit of Honda of the 1990s to return.


And this.


We're not Honda haters. We wouldn't be here if we were. We just have high expectations of a once great automotive giant and are painfully realistic when it comes to their current situation.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #59
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Speaking of the RDX and the turbo engine....

I just read on AcuraNews.com that the 2013 RDX is going to a 3.5L 273hp V6 and that the turbo engine is being dropped. WTF was that Acura was saying then when the 1G RDX came out, that the turbo engine performed "more intelligently" than the V6 did?? Old EPA 19/24 with 2.3L turbo FWD, new EPA of 20/28 mpg with 3.5L V6 and FWD. So Honda does a half-azzed turbo engine and then discontinues it in favor of the same boring V6 that's in every other car they have rather than EVOLVING what they've got. Is this turbo engine going away??

IMO, Honda missed an enormous opportunity by NOT making something like an Acura TSX Type-S with the turbo engine and a 6MT. How bout a TSX coupe? I know that would sell pretty well. I was shocked when they finally did an optional engine for the TSX, but it was the same boring 3.5L V6 as everything else, along with the most boring possible 5 speed automatic. And I like wagons quite a bit, and am similarly shocked that you can only get that with the even more boring 2.4L 4-banger and 5 speed automatic once again. Have loved the TSX, but ever since it's come out it's been screaming to have some testosterone injected into it. Tons of missed opportunities with Honda. They just can't be challenged these days. They see something that presents a challenge and just back off and do what they know works.

As a BMW 'cic' owner now, I've taken notice that Honda *STILL* does not make a convertible either. Both Lexus and Infiniti do. Toyota still has the Solara which apparently sells quite well. And Nissan came out with a convertible MURANO SUV type vehicle of all things. A big risk on Nissan's part, but hey I give them credit for trying something new. Honda still has nada here. Okay they had the S2000, but that doesn't seat 4 people. I take my kids to school every morning in my BMW, and when the weather is nice with the top down too.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 01:13 PM   #60
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Dropping that motor would be sacrilege. If you're going to take it out of the RDX, at least put it in something else.

I've always thought about a TSX Type S or a TSX Coupe. I would definitely consider it. Even if the "Type S" just consisted of the 6 speed manual; that would suffice for me. Yea it's the same V6 but at least it would somewhat compete (since it's lighter than the TL-s) with the G37, 335, etc.

As mentioned earlier, they need to bring back the S2K, or at least add a RWD coupe/sedan into their lineup to compete. With the RDX turbo motor it would certainly outsell the Genesis imo. In a perfect world, they would offer it with a new DOHC V6 as well as the RDX turbo motor, to give it a greater chance against its competitors. Fat chance.
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