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indoctidiscant
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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=492360&news_item_id=490348

i was trying to defend the domestics on this front, but sort of owned myself with the TL numbers. any inputs on how i can still show that the domestic powerplant has a chance?



Re: TL Sales Up
OwAce wrote:they should buy the impala then, or the malibu, or even the new ford fusion.

better mpg and better power delivery and more room. the looks from the chevy dept are lacking though. the fusion/zephyr/milan are gorgeous though.
Are you really serious? The TL easily bests any of those cars. The Fusion has equal economy, but consideribly less power. The V8 Impala SS has more power but less economy while the V6 Impala has about the same power and still less economy. The TL will drive circles around all those cars in handling too.

OwAce
Profile for OwAce
Re: TL Sales Up

http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/2006/112_news51/

this 3.5 liter engine will be fords v6 in all v6 equipped cars in 6 months time.

Horsepower/kW @ engine RPM 211/157 @ 5,800
Torque (lb.-ft./N-m) @ RPM 214/290 @ 4,000
MPG 21/31


Horsepower/kW @ engine RPM 242/328 @ 4,400
Torque (lb.-ft./N-m) @ RPM 242/181 @ 6,000
MPG 19/27

Horsepower/kW @ engine RPM 323/438 @ 4,400
Torque (lb.-ft./N-m) @ RPM 303/226 @ 5,600
MPG 18/28

Acura TL [email protected]
[email protected]
20/29
ACURA FTW!!!!!!!!!
 

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"Certified Hybrid Killer"
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5,056 Posts
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove. In this thread you seem to be asking more about engines, and that thread seems to be more about cars as a whole. There's plenty of room for argument on domestic vs Honda and other import engines whether you're talking about maximum power or fuel consumption or both, and that's for both current and historical engines also. GM in particular has a long history of powerful yet efficient engines.
 

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indoctidiscant
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Discussion Starter #3
i guess what i was trying to show was how the impala (compares to the TL), is better in terms of 1) power and 2) efficiency hand in hand.
 

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"Certified Hybrid Killer"
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I don't think that the Impala which is a value-minded full-sized $20k car is really all that good of a comparison with the TL which is a mid-sized near-lux $30k car. The best engine to compare with the J32A3 is GM's LY7 3.6L DOHC V6 which is used in the Cadillac CTS. If you apply the following completely non-scientific formula to get a "rough idea" of the power and efficiency combo that the engine delivers you get the following results:

[(Peak HP + Peak TQ)/2] x [(City MPG + Hwy MPG)/2] = Overall Power & Efficiency Index

GM 3.6L DOHC V6: 5703
Acura J32A3 V6: 5892

The Acura does get a slight edge just based on that formula, but the GM 3.6 should also get bonus points for the following:

- makes peak torque at only 3100 rpm vs 5000 for the Acura
- is rated on and only requires regular fuel vs premium for the Acura
- uses a timing chain which doesn't need replacing vs a belt on the Acura

Based on that alone I would much rather have the GM 3.6 engine. The CTS is also handicapped a bit on the EPA highway cycle due to the fact that the CTS is a bit less aerodynamic than the TL is with a Cd of 0.31 vs 0.28. That contributes to better highway mileage on the TL which has everything to do with body design and nothing to do with the engine. I'm not sure what the gearing and shift mapping looks like on the Cadillac either, but that can also have a significant impact on fuel economy. The CTS uses the GM Hydramatic 5L40-E transmission, which is the same one that BMW used in a lot of their own cars so it's probably a safe bet that the gearing is more on the aggressive side (esp 5th gear) and that the shift mapping is more in favor of responsiveness over economy also. Assuming the Caddy engine will pickup a few ponies with premium fuel in the tank like the Honda J30A4/5 will, guess who comes out on top in that equation? :cool:

So one has a little more zip and is slightly thirstier, but only needs regular fuel. One has a little less zip but is a bit more frugal on gas, but needs premium gas. They're both good engines, so take your pick. GM also has a 2.8L turbocharged V6 from the same engine series that has about the same overall power and fuel mileage. But since it's a factory turbo, you'll be able to mod the crap out of it. That engine is a Ward's 10 Best Engine this year, so sorta a bummer that it's only available in the Saab 9-3.



GM's pushrod V6 engines are sorta in a different league and it's really not fair to compare them to high end OHC V6 engines just based on paper specs and dreaded (and useless) HP/L figures unless you also mention physical size and overall cost to build. GM's OHV V6 engines are a good bit smaller physically than OHC V6's and don't really need all that much more space than an Inline-4. They're also significantly cheaper to build (anywhere from $500-1000 cheaper than a comparable OHC 24-valve V6) which allows them to offer customers V6 power at the price point of import Inline-4's. GM's modernized V6 engines in the Impala (LZ4 3.5L and LZ9 3.9L) are designed to give customers the higher performance of OHC V6 engines while still maintaining the compact form factor and cost effectiveness of the pushrod architecture. Expect mpg to go up about 1 mpg in both city and hwy after GM starts deploying their 6T70 6spd transverse automatics widespread over the next year or so. Most of these cars are still only using 4spd automatics. So GM's pushrod V6 engines aren't really "intended" to be performance engines, but GM can make them that way too, and do a pretty darn good job also with the cost advantages.


As far as the LS4 V8 goes, here's its score: 7042.5 :cool:

That's good enough to blow almost every high-po import V6 engine right out of the water. It offers significantly more overall power than most and is hardly any thirstier since it can run in V-4 mode thanks to Displacement on Demand technology. It will also fire evenly and smoothly like that so it doesn't need a ton of add-on stuff (active motor mounts, active noise cancellation, etc) like Honda does with their DoD V6 engines. The LS4 is a state of the art engine in every respect. And again thanks to the compact nature of pushrod engines it can be made to fit under the slender hood of mid-sized V6 sedans like the Impala. Those things will run high-13's @ 100 mph stock, and due to the fact that GM actually has a clue when it comes to building high powered FWD cars (they've been doing it for decades) there's very little torque steer. Even C&D admitted that.

GM and DCX with the HEMI have proven that just because something has a big honkin V8 engine with tons of power doesn't mean it's going to suck up a ton of gas also. The Chrysler 300C with 340hp/390tq gets the same mileage as an Infiniti G35 with only 280hp/270tq even when the Chrysler is a full-sized sedan vs a mid-sized, 4000 lbs vs 3400 lbs, and has the aerodynamics of a brick vs the streamlined G35. Now just imagine what would happen if DCX came out with a 3500-3600 lb RWD car with good aerodynamics and put a HEMI in it. It would slaughter the G35 all day long at the track and also get better mileage than the G too. :angel:


And that was probably a crap load more than you were looking for. I would not bother trying to post any of this on VTEC.net btw. It's a Honda groupie site and horribly biased just by that nature, so you're not likely to find many open minds that would be receptive to any sort of dissenting point of view.
 

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indoctidiscant
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
ty, for a moment i really felt dumb to even think the domestic oems had a chance with their new engines. i have a ton of money riding on the new 3.5liters that both dcx and ford are producing.

oh also those 6spd trannies..

i cant wait for some real good stuff to start coming out of detroit again. the only thing that scares me is that japan seems to come out with stuff equally nice. :goofy:
 

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"Certified Hybrid Killer"
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kramer2k said:
:and1:

I just like to have a huge selection of vehicles to choose from when automobile shopping. It just makes the whole process more fun...for a car nut such as myself at least.
or a ton more difficult. I seriously have no clue WTH to get next. :gotme:
 

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indoctidiscant
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Discussion Starter #10
SteVTEC said:
or a ton more difficult. I seriously have no clue WTH to get next. :gotme:
the new impala! its growing on me. and i think it looks prettier than the accord sedan. :eek:
 

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indoctidiscant
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Discussion Starter #12
kramer2k said:
This thread made me go visit the Chevy website. I built a SS Impala, loaded for under $30K. Not bad for an efficient V8. As mentioned though, the four-speed automatic is severly hindering that thing. :down:
give it another year, the 6speed auto will be in it. ford has recently started production of the 6speed, and gm will eventually do it 6 months down the line.
 

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"Certified Hybrid Killer"
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kramer2k said:
This thread made me go visit the Chevy website. I built a SS Impala, loaded for under $30K. Not bad for an efficient V8. As mentioned though, the four-speed automatic is severly hindering that thing. :down:
not true ;)
 

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BTW the Saturn Aura looks pretty hot, which is debuting with the 6T70. I saw one on display at one of the auto shows recently but you weren't allowed to sit in it.
 

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A lot of import owners would be pleasantly surprised or even shocked at how well GM's 4spd automatics work if they would ever actually go out and drive them. I've rented Grand Prixs a few times and thought it would be a dog with the base 3800 and 4spd. Boy was I wrong. The 3800 is extremely torquey and also turbine smooth, and despite only having 4 gears there weren't really any gearing holes or gaps. Shift response and quality is outstanding, as is the torque converter. Not only that, but it gets great gas mileage too. GM automatics that I had as rentals were what convinced me to get an automatic back in the day, only I got a Honda automatic. Bad move.

I really don't care how many gears something has as long as it performs well (objective) and feels good to drive (subjective). I've been very pleased with GM 4spd autos, at least on 3800 and above engines. The 3.5 and below (OHV) don't quite have the torque to pull the taller gears though, so they could definitely use extra gears for sure but they're already super efficient at 32 mpg hwy for a V6. I bet the 3.6 DOHC engine does just fine though, as will a 5.3 V8. 4 gears + DoD = 28 mpg which is the same as a Maxima. The only 5spd auto car I've driven enough to comment on was an Accord 4cyl (rental) and I found it to be extremely shifty and annoying, like it was never settling down into a gear. Didn't like it at all.
 

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ex scientia vera
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Great points! ^ It's funny you bring up some of these points. I've recently made the decision that I actually prefer the shifting characteristics of my AV6 over the Maxima. The Maxima just seems to gear hunt way too much in certain ranges. Despite my easing off the gas ever so slightly on small inclines, the darn thing downshifts on me. I suppose I will learn the quirks, characteristics, and small things such as this over time. But the nod goes to the AV6 in initial impressions here.

Back on topic: :p Sorry about that Owace...
I'm very much looking forward to being in the market again within the next two years when my fiancee will be looking to replace her 1995 Dodge Neon. :eek:
That car just won't quit. Anyhow, the market is getting exciting again.
 

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Wow SteVtech, you really know a lot about cars. But yeah I gotta agree domestic is comming out with some pretty sweet stuff. I dont even want to think about having to decide what to get because there is way too much good cars out there, and continuing to come out. Also, the LS4 is the corvette engine right?? Man, those things are fast, awesome looking and so d**** cheap. I dont see how you can get anything else if you are looking for a high performance car.
 
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